Being a Genuine Agile Coach is a Daily Choice with Jimena Saavedra

Join me for an enriching conversation with Jimena Saavedra, an Agile coach hailing from the beautiful shores of Montevideo, Uruguay. Jimena shares her journey of transformation within the world of Agile coaching, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and trust in driving meaningful change. As we bond over Uruguay's picturesque beaches, Jimena reveals the daily decisions that shape her role and the necessity of fostering genuine connections within teams. Through her candid insights, she highlights the challenges and sometimes isolating aspects of being an Agile coach, while underscoring the power of embracing discomfort to facilitate real growth.

Our discussion opens up further to examine the complexities and hurdles Agile coaches often encounter. From handling team dynamics to the delicate art of balancing professional distance with personal connections, we delve into experiences that test resilience and honesty. We recount a personal story of attempting to gather meeting time data, illustrating the importance of timing and transparency. Through shared anecdotes and mentor advice, we explore the significance of self-awareness and insightful questioning in an Agile coach's toolkit. Listeners are encouraged to stay connected with Agile communities, embrace challenges, and pursue continuous development, all while pushing teams toward accountability and growth, even when it means stepping into uncomfortable territory.

Connect with Jimena on LinkedIn:
https://linkedin.com/in/maria-jimena-saavedra

Connect with Jimena by Email:
mjsaavedra02@gmail.com

Explore Jimema's website and YouTube channel (in Spanish at the moment):
www.disruptronix.com
https://www.youtube.com/@jimenasaavedra-agilistagenuina

Discover Uruguay and Punta del Este, the Miami Beach of South America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZC2lyuNAfo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punta_del_Este

Chapters

• 0:06 Being a Genuine Agile Coach
• 12:28 Navigating Challenges as an Agile Coach
• 28:29 Embracing Challenges as an Agile Coach

Transcript

Mark: 0:06

Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, mark Metz. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections. My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys, triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned. So get pumped, get rocking. The Agile Within starts now. Well, hello everybody. This is Mark Metz with the Agile Within. I hope you're having an absolutely fantastic day today. Our guest today is Ximena Saavedra. Ximena, thank you so much for coming on the Agile Within.

Jimena: 0:52

Thank you, Mark. Thank you very much to you. I've been waiting for this moment such a long time.

Mark: 1:00

Yeah, so you and I connected in a training from the back of the room virtual edition class from Angie Agresto. That was a very good class and you were one of the great people that I met there, so not only was the training valuable, but I made a great connection as well.

Jimena: 1:15

Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you.

Mark: 1:19

So, ximena, you are from Montevideo, uruguay, correct.

Jimena: 1:24

Yeah, South America.

Mark: 1:26

Yeah, so tell us, if I were coming there for a day, what's one thing that you would say that I couldn't miss doing?

Jimena: 1:33

Okay, I would definitely invite you to walk along our Rambla. So it's marvelous because you can walk there a lot of kilometers, by the sea, by the river, in fact, and it's really nice. Many people coming to Uruguay they say this is a great place to walk, yeah.

Mark: 1:56

Oh nice.

Jimena: 1:57

I would definitely go with you if you come here.

Mark: 2:02

Tell me a little bit more about what it's like. Is it very populated with trees? Is it more open? What is it like?

Jimena: 2:10

well, we have the rio de la plata near our country, so it's surrounded by river, so you have a sea all the time. We are surrounded beaches. So we have a very special place and beach here. That is Punta del Este, and I really recommend that. It's like our little Miami here, so, and there are also a lot of beaches more natural. So that's I really like Uruguay, because whenever you go you can find a beach to be there, so summer it find a beach to be there, so summer it's a very typical place to go to beaches in here, and I particularly go to Punta del Este, but when I was younger I used to go to other beaches, so it's really great that I really recommend that.

Mark: 3:01

Absolutely. I grew up going to the beach, so where I live in South Carolina, it's a couple hours from the ocean, from the coast. So I spent a lot of time myself as a young lad, so to speak, and also as an adult just enjoy the sounds of the ocean, the sounds of the water, just very calming. And yeah, how do you have a bad time at the beach?

Mark: 3:22

Yeah, impossible, yeah, how do you have a bad time at the beat? Come on, yeah, impossible. The title for today's episode is being a Genuine Agile Coach is a Daily Choice Boy. That is a very interesting title. What led you, ximena, to choosing this topic, and why is it important to be a daily choice?

Jimena: 3:46

Sometimes, when I wake up, I have this feeling and this thought what I was thinking when I decided to be an agile coach I could have an easy job, or at least when I started my first steps, I thought it would be more easier.

Jimena: 4:05

But the thing is that while I speak with other Agile coaches, I go to conferences or in the communities that I'm part of, a Uruguayan community Agile UI we like share the same like feeling of how we motivate ourselves to be an Agile coach. First of all, it's very relieving to understand that I'm not alone. Many people think the same and I hope the audience if they also find like I'm not alone while listening to this and this reflection is more often than you might think Because this person, this agile coach, who is expected to find strength without knowing where to facilitate something, to have a difficult conversation, and also you have to build trust in order to generate the change. So for me, it's a big responsibility. So, after several situations and after accompanying many teams, I realized that being a Genene coach, it's something that you choose every day and that's what I would like to share with you today.

Mark: 5:16

So you say that you're not alone, but I think it's important to acknowledge it can be a lonely position. You can feel isolated. While you're part of the team, you're different many times, right.

Jimena: 5:30

Yeah, that's very important because you have to be part of the team. How do you expect people to make them want to change if you're not part of that? So that's very important. And the trust thing is something that for me, is vital. I mean, an agile coach cannot think of bringing any change question on the table, anything if you don't have the trust of the people. So sometimes you say, hey, it's been three months here, I cannot provoke any change, but maybe what you are trying is to build this trust and then, when you have this, it's more easy going. Also, things flow more naturally, you know. But first of all, I would like, mark, if you agree, to define why I differentiate this term of being genuine.

Mark: 6:22

Sure.

Jimena: 6:23

You can find many agile coaches scrum masters, facilitators but for me, those who can make the change happen are those who are genuine, and let me explain why, or how I see something genuine, or what is this word? For me, an Agile coach means to be uncomfortable most of the time when, when you do something, when you facilitate, when you have a difficult conversation, when you want to present a plan, you have to deal with this to being uncomfortable, and an Agile coach needs not to be stuck on this state and trying to speak about how uncomfortable this job is, because you sometimes are putting things on the table that anybody wants to hear, to any level of the organization. Sometimes even my inner voice says why I don't want to be in this conversation. I really feel very uncomfortable and maybe trying to explicit this to the other person in a way that you are also part of this change and this is not easy. Also for me, that starts generating like distrust relationship.

Jimena: 7:36

For me, doing agile is not something that I do once, but it's a mindset that I need to constantly and daily nurture. It's not something that you learn in a course. It's an everyday exercise, because every day, your teams will teach you something new being a genuine agile goal meets. You need to be uncomfortable and being open to change, every day if needed.

Mark: 8:04

You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Jimena: 8:07

Absolutely.

Mark: 8:08

There's like a balance to be had right. If you keep your teams totally uncomfortable all of the time, it's going to be hard to make traction. So it's hard to find that balance sometimes or at least it is for me to find that balance between being challenging and being encouraging.

Jimena: 8:27

Yeah, and that's a very, very difficult skill to develop being an agigola and doing okay. This is the point where I need to change something, because if I change, maybe the context would change. But first of all, it is good the team to feel uncomfortable, in a sense that because of raising a question or putting a situation on the table, this will create more trust. That for me, it's good to be uncomfortably expected. You know, I also have learned that sometimes, because of the way I facilitate and because of the face of the team you are facilitating or a company, you have to switch your leadership style, because I consider myself also a leader, because I influence. Also, if I come with a plan and I have a facilitation technique or a transformation or evolution plan and the team is in a phase where we cannot speak about having, for example, don't expect them to bring all the problems and sincere feelings on the table. You have to start slowly trying to like dragging the things into the team until a point that where they can speak openly. So if, for achieving that state, you have to change a bit your style, that's not bad and you have to be open to change that and you might say, hey, no, this is not what I wanted. I really wanted to start doing something by the team, but they are not allowing me Start them to allow you, maybe by you changing the way you approach them.

Jimena: 10:13

I like Goldman's leadership styles. He explains all the leadership styles and none of them are bad. But if you use them purely that, where I think it won't be, have a success on your team. But sometimes your team needs to be signed the election and that's okay. You can switch to that leader style. That's not bad. And sometimes and this is where the challenge comes you have to see, as an agile coach, when your team needs another leadership style, like, for example OK, I will leave this directed or authoritative leadership style and I will go more to a coaching one, or maybe I will need to go to a more democratic or whatever you know. So that's the challenge of an agile coach you need to know where to switch the style. Sometimes it hurt me because it went against all my plans.

Mark: 11:09

So If you're familiar with. Sorry, I don't mean to step on top of you If you're familiar with the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel.

Mark: 11:16

That is an absolutely fantastic resource to have because it outlines the different stances that an agile coach can and should take. So my question for you revolving around this because you can take different stances, but you mentioned being a genuine agile coach and, like for me and my leadership style, I'm not the type that's going to pound the table, that's going to shout, that's going to be extremely direct and tell people when they've not lived up to expectations. I am much more of an encourager. That's just the way that my DNA is, that's the way my parents were, that's the way I coached kids and I was very it came across as very authentic and because that's who I was, I was much more of an encourager and I have a small story to tell in just a minute that may give some insight into that. But my question for you is how do you balance using these different leadership styles but also being genuine and authentic at the same time?

Jimena: 12:25

Being transparent to the team. Let me give an example. There was like an exercise sometime I wanted to do with one of the teams I accompany and I wanted them to help me to feel some information for understanding how much time they spend on meetings. But I don't know why. I felt that the team was not happy with that. Okay, so they go. Hey, jimena, I don't think this. So I learned and I said I think this is not the moment for doing that In other situations.

Jimena: 13:02

I think this is the right moment because you are asking for understanding why you spend so much time in doing things. So, seeing you in many meetings, this could help. But I understand that maybe you are not in a phase, or I don't want to say willingness because they won't, or I don't want to say willingness because they want, but maybe something else is needed for you to understand what this problem is. So I was very open to them. I say this was my plan, but I don't think the way I'm trying to get this information is something that you feel comfortable with. I will hold on this. Let's see in the future if this arises again, but for the moment I will hold it, and sometimes that's what it hurt me a lot.

Jimena: 13:52

Know when to hold it, because it's like Agile Goals just need every time to show results, and sometimes you have to wait for the team's time until there is a sign or something that says, hey, this is the moment you should be doing something else, because there are evidence. Take this evidence and show it to the team. Hey, do you remember when you had this question about how much meetings you were having or how many meetings you were having? Don't you think this situation that is happening now relates to that? Can we retake this thing and move forward? So sometimes you need to feel that signal from the team and take it.

Jimena: 14:33

Start from there. That's how you learn to be transparent to them and very, completely honest, because I don't know why this figure of the Agile Code sometimes is hey, this is the person who will resolve all of our problems. And this person also has, like, the skill to motivate herself. She doesn't need anybody to motivate her. I don't know, maybe this is kind of some kind of superhero coming from heaven. No, that's not the thing, because of my process of being a coach helps you much more than not having these skills, because you know that your actions are driven by emotions also, so being conscious about these emotions helps you maybe a bit more than not having these skills, so being honest has been a really very good tool with the team.

Mark: 15:24

I would say yes to all of that. And if something is uncomfortable for you to share, share that. This is uncomfortable for me to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. If you're eating dinner with someone or you're in a group and someone has you know, just imagine they're eating and they have food on their face, that can be like a coaching moment for you. What do you do? It's probably more comfortable for you to just say I'm going to go to the restroom right now and just avoid it. But is that really the right thing to do? I've had that time before. I had to say you know what. This is incredibly uncomfortable for me to say, but if I were, if the were reversed?

Mark: 16:04

I would want you to say something to tell me nicely.

Jimena: 16:08

You have something on your face. How do you do skin hacking your teeth?

Mark: 16:11

Oh yes, oh yes.

Jimena: 16:13

The same thing.

Mark: 16:16

Sometimes we can get so ingrained with the team, we can get too friendly to some extent. You almost have to like because we are part of the team and I feel like you really have to have that bond. But you almost have to take that step back or take that step up and have a higher view and say I'm going to either say this or do this action because it's for the betterment of the team.

Jimena: 16:38

Yes, and you said that to be friendly or not, for me and for a recent situation I had with a team that is not very used to have an external facilitator If they're very used to someone who tries to be nice and that hears a lot what the team is trying to, what is the team's message, but the thing is that a facilitator has also to have some rules for the facilitation. And being a facilitator doesn't mean, for example, to be the friend of all of them and if I, for example, in a group coaching session or in a retrospective or whatever, I feel there's something under the carpet I don't know, or the elephant in the room but nobody sees, I will raise that question. Another thing that maybe teams are not very used to, when you start facilitating things for the first time and they're seeing you how you facilitate is the time moderation. Sometimes, when you don't have these skills, you will let people speak all the time they want. You will see all the catharsis there and they start in a analysis, paralysis situation where they cannot get out. And when you put some rules on, hey guys, let's try to take some action and some plans in order not to be in this situation anymore and try to find some actions on your own, because it's very difficult putting the blame on the others sometimes, or how responsible are you of the situation and so? So when you do this question, you make this question to the team. They really don't like it, and maybe this time you, as an agile coach, you will feel I messed it up. I won't return to this team. They hate me. They really hate me. I won't come again.

Jimena: 18:32

But if you, your intentions were, hey guy, what you are saying is this. What's generating all these feelings? Why you're saying this and, at the same time, this, and what I'm seeing is that there are only five minutes left in the session and we haven't come up with any action plan in order to move forward. So that's something that will make them uncomfortable. They were not used to that. Hey, someone is asking me to be responsible. That's what you're trying to. That's the message me to be responsible. That's what you're trying to. That's the message. First of all, when you have these feelings about I messed it up, the first question is do you think that, if everything went well, do you think an Agile goal is needed? Do you think someone told you that you have to be everybody's friend here, because sometimes you need to bring all these topics on the table, and that's your job.

Mark: 19:27

And usually it just takes that first time Mentioning the elephant in the room. Once you put that on the table, it's like people. You can almost see them exhale and say yes, yes, jimena, yes, absolutely. I'm so glad you said that and hopefully that success leads to more successes so that you aren't the only one having to announce that elephant in the room, right?

Jimena: 19:55

Yeah.

Mark: 19:56

Maybe next time you can go in and say it seems to me like there's something that's not being said Absolutely and just pause. Just pause for a minute. And sometimes you have to be uncomfortable. Be comfortable with being uncomfortable in that pause of not saying anything. Finally, someone will break through and just say well, nobody's going to say it, so I'm just going to go ahead and say it. We're just not working together as a team, we're working together as individuals. We're just not working together as a team, we're working together as individuals. Okay, we've said it. Now we can have the conversation, but until until you acknowledge it, you're just going to continue to dance around the the main problem, right?

Jimena: 20:34

Yeah.

Jimena: 20:35

And there will be people who will never be comfortable with this kind of questions. That's another thing. The agile coach and me for me needs to be very aware there will. There will be allies on your process of transformation and you will have detractors, and you have to be very aware of how to influence those kind of people and who are the ones who will help you. And there are also the good detractors who will make you see the dark part of maybe that you are not able to see those I want in my team. The rest will like.

Jimena: 21:16

I think that times allows the filter to start filtering the team, you know, because the team will start doing some their own culture, their own balance, and those who do not fit into the team, I think the team will let them know that they are some kind of attitudes or behaviors are not welcome. Even though, while we reach this kind of status in a team, the HR coach still has emotions regarding this. In my case, I feel like anguish. Why is it not happening? Because even though I try to change the way I do things or changing my mental model in order to meet the team's mental model or to understand the face where they are, it still impacts me and sometimes it hurts and I think it's okay to tell the team that and it's healthy for you to say these are things that are impacting me.

Mark: 22:15

We've talked about some really tough things that an Agile coach has to do. Talking about these tough conversations mentioning the elephant in the room really having to broach these hard, maybe deep-rooted conversations for the team hard maybe deep rooted conversations from the team and I'm feeling kind of heavy and maybe a little bit down just from this conversation, because it is heavy and that's something real that I think we all feel. But where do we get our support? Because we can't stay in that low place. We can't stay I'm giving air quotes in the drama of the team. We can't have that negative talk within our minds. Stay, because otherwise it's going to manifest itself and the team's going to see that. Where do we go to get that support so that we lift ourselves out of these low points?

Jimena: 23:10

Yes, and I really feel that sometimes, even though you're the best coach, sometimes you may have these feelings because we are human and we can understand that. These are emotions, these are feelings, but sometimes you are human and you also want things to happen and be successful, also for you, for the team, whatever conversation you're having. I mean, maybe you have to challenge the leadership of the company. So it's not a very easy task. At one point, hey, I kind of have this feeling all the time, all the way. So how can I help myself to keep moving and keep my team moving and keep the leadership team moving? First of all, it's a good exercise to be coached. Like therapists they go to therapy For me from time to time, being coached because I don't find which my dilemma is and where is my carbon status and where I want to be when that is very messy and I don't, and where I want to be when that is very like messy and I don't find. I try to be coached, or at least someone who can understand which my situation is and bring me some clarity on the questions I have to do to myself, to make to myself. So that's one thing I generally find very calming Seek mentorship. You don't have to be. You don't need to know all the things in Agile and I don't know everything. So please first be honest to your team that I don't know and I will learn and be mentored about that. Maybe you need mentoring about how to apply these things for the first time. You're teaching your team that learning is not something bad. Maybe you need mentoring about how to apply these things for the first time. You're teaching your team that learning is not something bad. If the first person who is helping you needs to learn, that's a very good sign to the team. Hey, I don't know that. Let me see how I can learn about this. Or maybe another thing that also happened to me is I don't know. I know your time is different from mine because I have to learn, so maybe you have to seek external help for that part in order for the team to keep moving. And then I learn and the second time, maybe I will be able to mentor you Be part of agile communities.

Jimena: 25:25

Many people is in your own situation. Maybe you don't even know that agile communities are in your country, your place. I don't know whatever. So try to find these agile communities. You will find very nice people who is willing to help you, and also for free, because we're a community. Sharing knowledge with others and listening to others' experience is also kind of relieving. It's like a very calming experience knowing that others can help you and others are having the same situation as you, for example, in Uruguay. I'm a very supporter of an agile community here the Agile UE so it's very nice being part of a community.

Jimena: 26:09

You learn a lot from others. For me, those things are three things that give me that energy boost whenever I'm in this kind of situation. Hey, this is the maximum I can support. No, try to get out of these negative thinkings. Be coached. Try to speak with someone else. Be part of communities, be mentored, because something when you don't know, this learning thing gets you anguished and it's because you don't know. So try to learn that and accept that maybe someone has to take your role at some technique because you don't know everything, and then start doing that on your own when you learn. And then start doing that on your own when you learn. That's not control losing or authority losing. Try to be honest to your team. Hey, this part I'm not very knowledgeable. I will bring some other who knows and I will learn.

Mark: 27:02

So you mentioned communities or the agile community. That played a huge part and that was why I shifted my career to where I am now, because you don't find that everywhere. There are other professions where your peers may be looked upon as adversaries and you're there to prove yourself that you're better than them, but I find quite the opposite in the Agile community, that most people are very humble. They are willing to share the missteps that they've had. Ximena, I'll just say I don't know how many times I've come and just said you know, I've had this horrible day, I had this situation and I felt like I absolutely flopped, I feel like I took a step back in my career. And how many times someone said you know, I had the exact same experience. And just being able to share that and connect with someone and hear how they overcame or how they approach that, it's very helpful and not have someone on the other end feel like, oh, should you go do something different. That's extremely helpful to me. And you know I won't generalize and maybe not everybody is like that, but by and large, a large majority of the people that I've interfaced with in the Agile community has been very welcoming, very uplifting and challenging as well. Now I want to reinforce one other thing that you mentioned, and that's about being honest with what you don't know, and sometimes we have these personalities that, for whatever reason, we're insecure and we can come across to be too apologetic.

Mark: 28:45

Again, there's this balance that you have to maintain. You can be honest, but at some point you can, like, start being too honest and not giving yourself enough credit. You're beating yourself up and that really does hurt your credibility and pretty soon people are saying well, gosh Mark says he doesn't know how to do this. He doesn't know how to do that. He screwed this up. Is there anything he can do that's worthwhile? So you have to balance that honesty, and my dad gave me the best advice I'd ever heard in my life. My dad told me be honest, just don't be stupid. Honest.

Jimena: 29:21

Yeah, absolutely. I really. I really liked what you said and that's I mean, for example, I'm not a very technical knowledgeable, but I have like the skill of bringing those skills to the team by bringing the people who knows about that. And maybe I'm not very knowledgeable on Git or something like that, but I'm good at bringing all the parts together and get them communicating and start talking. So that's where I think my value is.

Mark: 29:55

To mention this again you're not so far down in the weeds that you can't see the big picture. I think that's part of your role is to have that 30,000 foot view and maybe prompt the team to say I know we're working hard, I know we're trying to do, but it seems like we're spending too much time in this area. Or if you have data you can bring to show the team and they may be like oh, you're right, damon Poole is a absolutely fabulous Agile coach and he taught a course through IC Agile and he shared an example that really hit the nail on the head for me with the job of an Agile coach. And he was just sitting and observing a daily scrum and the team had. They were using JIRA or using some tools and they were going through the swim lanes one by one, talking about the work that they were doing, and he sort of sensed that they were talking about a lot of things and instead of just saying that, he asked the team.

Mark: 30:58

He said can you do me a favor for just a second? Can you just take the swim lanes off for me for just a minute and let's take a look? And when he did, it was apparent that how much work was actually in process by the teams. And he said he could hear the teams actually audibly gasp and they were like we didn't even realize we were focusing on one swim lane at a time and it seemed like we weren't working on much at the same time. But now that we remove it we see, yes, absolutely. So that is an absolutely perfect picture of what an agile coach can bring from a team. You're not so deep into it that you can't zoom out a little bit and see the big picture.

Jimena: 31:41

And making right questions in the right moment is also a skill that is not achieved by only one coaching session or coaching course. That comes with time when to make those powerful questions and at which time is the most adequate. And maybe you are not a very technical person, but bringing the question that's. For me it's like a big step.

Mark: 32:08

Totally agree. Well, ximena, as we're starting to run out of time here, I want to ask you you and I talked about a lot of the challenges that an Agile coach has to face, and they aren't always easy to approach those what is the best piece of advice that you have for them as they face their challenges on a day-to-day basis?

Jimena: 32:31

on a day-to-day basis. First of all, that resilience and some kind of frustration needs to be. They need to be your friends. Don't see them as enemy. You cannot be frustrated all the time. For that I already gave you some piece of advice of being coached be mentored, join some agile community so that you can learn and that frustration will. You will see that it will be diminished. There is something very powerful that being friend of this, being comfortable with being uncomfortable the time I wake up if any day, I wake up okay, and I stop choosing being uncomfortable and I want to go for the easy path instead of the right path, I know it's time for me to reconsider my path. That's what I'm learning from all my Agile code journey till now.

Mark: 33:33

Very well said, Ximena. So if our listeners want to contact you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Jimena: 33:41

Yeah, well, my LinkedIn. My name is very long there, Mark. Maybe I will give you my details. And also I have my webpage that is disruptronicscom, and also I have my webpage that is disruptronicscom, and also I can leave my contact, my email, so we can have a quick talk there. We can set up some call. If someone wants to have some coaching session with me regarding this or some mentoring regarding this, I don't have any problems. So please feel free to contact me if this is happening to you and you want some advice from my humble opinion.

Mark: 34:20

That's great. We'll put all those links in the show notes to make it easy for our listeners out there to contact you, ximena, thank you so much for coming on the Agile Within. It's been a privilege.

Jimena: 34:30

Thank you, mark, and thanks to you for asking me to do that absolutely all right, everybody.

Mark: 34:36

It's a wrap. We'll see everybody next time. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the agile within. If you haven't already, please join our linkedin page to stay in touch. Just search for the Agile Within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues Until next time. This has been your host, mark Metz.