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The Agile Within
Providing agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections.
The Agile Within
Leading with Moral Authority with Nicole Derr
Ever wondered how doing the right thing can transform your leadership style? Join us on "The Agile Within" as we sit down with Nicole Durr, an Agile coach turned strategic business advisor from Cleveland, Ohio, who illuminates the concept of leading with moral authority. From the vibrant melodies of the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra to the iconic Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Nicole not only highlights the best of Cleveland but also delves into the essence of moral versus positional authority. Learn how to navigate ethical dilemmas by modeling ethical behavior and standing firm in your values, regardless of your position within an organization.
Nicole expands on broader societal issues like unfair compensation and profit-driven layoffs, offering strategies to address these challenges. Whether it's educating leaders, building alliances, or taking the "Paul Simon approach" of exiting a misaligned system, this episode is packed with actionable advice for creating a healthier, more equitable work environment. Don't miss this insightful conversation that promises to empower you to uphold ethical standards in your professional journey.
Connect with Nicole on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolederr/
Visit Nicole's website:
https://nicolederr.com/
Check out the following events involving Nicole:
Oct 12: Columbus Women in Agile - In-person workshop
Oct 28: DC Women in Agile - Virtual presentation
Nov. 6-7: Pitt Agile - In-person closing keynote
Feb 18: Buffalo Women in Agile - Virtual presentation
When in Cleveland, visit Nicole's favorite sites:
Severance Music Center
The Cleveland Museum of Art
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
Playhouse Square
Pier W
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, Mark Metze. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections.
Mark:My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys, triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned so get pumped, get rocking.
Mark:The Agile Within starts now. I hope everyone out there is having a great day. This is Mark Metze with the Agile Within. We have a guest for the show today by the name of Nicole Derr. Nicole, welcome to the show.
Nicole:Hi, thanks so much for having me.
Mark:So, nicole, you're from Cleveland Ohio. If I'm coming to Cleveland Ohio for a day and I've never been before, which I haven't what's one thing that Nicole would say that I shouldn't miss doing?
Nicole:So you'd be surprised what we have in Cleveland. There are some really cool things to see. I probably would recommend the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra. That's our like world-renowned orchestra. You can see them in Severance Hall, which is a fantastic space with like amazing acoustics. And then after that I might walk just across the way to the Cleveland Art Museum, which is also phenomenal, and if you know that, maybe you filled your morning like that. Then I might go downtown and go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and maybe check out Playhouse Square, which is the second largest playhouse space behind New York City, and then maybe I'd watch the sunset over Lake Erie at Pier W.
Mark:Wow, that's a full day You'd be surprised. I forgot. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is there.
Nicole:Yeah, there's quite a few neat things to see in Cleveland, surprisingly.
Mark:How far away is the roller coaster park? I'm trying to think of the name.
Nicole:Yeah, Cedar Point.
Mark:Yeah, how far away.
Nicole:is that America's roller coast, as we call it? Yeah, that is. It's about an hour an hour west along the lake.
Mark:Not a bad drive at all.
Nicole:No, yeah, that could be day two, you know.
Mark:Very cool. Well, thanks for giving us a little tour of things to do in Cleveland. Nicole is an agile coach turned strategic business advisor, and she works with companies that want to build a legacy and contribute positively to society. The title for today's episode is Leading with Moral Authority, and I'm curious to ask you help us define. What do you mean when you say moral authority?
Nicole:Yeah, so you'll hear all different definitions for what moral authority is.
Nicole:I try to make it really simple and I just say it's doing the right thing, even when it's hard, because you know that's you know, it's not so difficult to do the right thing when there's not a lot of pressure on you, but when there's pressures coming from a lot of places, that's you know, it's not so difficult to do the right thing when there's not a lot of pressure on you, but when there's pressures coming from a lot of places, that's when things get tricky.
Nicole:But besides that, you might also hear people talk about moral authority in comparison to positional authority. So positional authority is what you're probably more used to. That's like you know, someone who has their authority based on their role, the hierarchy in the organization, their title. People feel compelled to follow that person. They are required to maybe, you know, to hold on to their job or whatever right, or to maybe even move forward in the organization, as opposed to someone who's leading with moral authority. That's somebody who's modeling a moral way of working and being. Instead of people feeling like that they have to follow the person, they follow them because they want to.
Mark:It's really interesting that you say that, because I've noticed a difference and so in my career I've moved from a management position managing development group into a scrum master and a coaching role. I did that move within the same company.
Nicole:Okay.
Mark:And so the people that reported to me directly, you do have, whether you realize it or not. You do have some influence over someone who reports to you because you're filling out their annual performance review. You have that level of influence. But when you don't, maybe people might treat you just a little bit differently. They don't mainly take what you say just based on your word. It's like, hmm, why should we do that? So you get questioned a little bit more if you don't have that position of authority, like you're saying, even though you maybe don't lead with a heavy hand, we're talking about leading with moral authority. What about people out there that say, well, I'm listening to this podcast, but I'm not in a position of leadership or a position of authority? How is this going to benefit me?
Nicole:Right. So I think that's what's so cool about moral authority about leading with moral authority as opposed to positional is really you can lead with moral authority from anywhere in the organization, right, because you're just demonstrating from anywhere in the organization, right, because you're just demonstrating like the right thing to do, right? So it doesn't matter where you sit in the organization. You can use your influence and model it for others.
Mark:It's equally, if not even more, important, I would say, for you to lead with that moral authority, because you don't have that positional authority to lean on. One of the things that you said is doing the right thing, even when it's not easy. You and I had a discussion about this before we're doing this recording. And doing the right thing isn't always cut and dry, is it? There are some gray areas, some shadows that are lurking in there where you're kind of wondering I want to do the right thing, but am I pushing things too far? Am I not pushing things far enough? What experience do you have there? Advice do you have for our listeners if they're starting to have those types of questions and doubts that they may have?
Nicole:I would say that you're absolutely right. Like doing the right, the right thing is not always the same Right, and I think that is hard for us sometimes to adopt that mentality, because we're sort of it's like we're looking for a rule book, right? If we could just find something that told us this is what's right and this is what's wrong, then we wouldn't have to think about it. But that's not how it works, right? The world is complex. We have to engage our brains in every situation and decide whether the thing is actually the right thing, right. What might be right in one situation may not be right in another situation. We need to really think about it. We can't just sort of blindly, you know, move forward.
Mark:It depends on the situation as to what the right thing is, and I've struggled there as well, because it's like you say there's not a. You can't turn to a rule book and say, okay, page 59, paragraph 12, article three, this is what I'm supposed to do in this situation. So it's very clear. But is there a process that you go through, or how do you? How do you get to that point where you can be confident that you are doing the right thing?
Nicole:I don't know for me if it's a process, but it's what I do is I sort of ask myself a grounding question, which is you know, when I'm old and gray and looking back on myself, you know, years later, how would I like to have responded in this moment, and that usually gives me the clarity that I need to decide what is the right thing and then find the confidence to do it.
Mark:So knowing what our personal values are, I assume that's important in the process. If you don't have those personal values, then what do you really have to make that basis of what is right for the situation?
Nicole:Yes, I would say that's true. I would also say that it might even be that you may have group values or, you know, maybe like the team values or company values right, that would also drive these decisions. Company values right, that would also drive these decisions. But I would also say that to your point, it's really important to know what you value so that you can then compare that to like the team values or the company values right, and do they align? Because that will put you in a difficult situation. If your values don't align with those of the organization, you're sort of under.
Mark:I found having those written down, whether it's electronic form or pen and paper or whatever, but having something that you can point back to, whether it be personal, group, company values, whatever that you can point back to and say okay, I'm making this decision, but this is why.
Nicole:Right.
Mark:This is my value.
Nicole:Like you and I talked the other day about kind of a simple one. Like we would probably all agree that you know it's not a great idea to lie Right. Like we would all agree that lying is not. You know, that might be a value of ours, right To be honest. That's one of the ones that we can probably all agree on. But there are probably moments where you would choose not to just say something Right, moments where you would choose not to just say something right. You don't, maybe you don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. Or again, it's a case by case situation, you know.
Mark:My dad always gave me some, some words of wisdom, and one of the things he always told me is be honest, just don't be stupid honest. There are times you can be a little too honest, right?
Nicole:I always say, like you know, don't be a jerk, but say the thing right, like, say it with tact and be respectful, you know? Yeah.
Mark:Don't tell the CEO boy. That's the stupidest thing I ever heard.
Nicole:Yeah, that's probably not the best way to say it.
Mark:I'll give you an example from my own life as I look back. And I was working as a software developer and my time was the companies were billed for the time that I spent on projects. So I would estimate things generally. The customer would pay based off of the, based off the estimate, or at least some portion of the estimate, to know whether they want to proceed or not. And we had this one engagement and my boss came to me and this was an area that I was very familiar in and he gave me the specification and said I'd like for you to estimate this so that we can get approval from the client.
Mark:So I went and spent some time, looked it over, broke it down fairly granularly. The customer wanted a very accurate estimate. So I broke it down and had every detail listed, you know, down to like by every I don't know, I'm thinking like every six to eight hours it was at least broken down to that level and then a summary. So I provided to my boss and he looks at it and he says I think he might it might take you a little bit longer than you're thinking and he pushed the sheet from his side of the table back over to my side of the table and I told him. I said well, you know, you asked me to give this detailed account and I signed my name to it and this is what I'm standing by. And so he pushes the sheet of paper back over to my side of the table and says why don't you take a second look? I think you could find you could come up and find a few more hours to add to this estimate. I knew what he was getting towards was.
Mark:The customer was going to just pay whatever I estimated it for, but that was something that was. It had my name on it and I was not going to let it be a false representation of something that I had put together and I was very certain of. And so I just told him. I said this has my name on it. I signed it. Whatever you do with it after this, that's your call. But as far as what you're asking for me, this is my estimate to the customer, and I remember him grabbing the sheet of paper and really not saying much of anything and walking out of the room and maybe I gained a little bit of respect from him Not sure, I know he wasn't very pleased at the time.
Mark:The customer was probably happy that I did that. But that was like a grounding for me because I was fairly early in my career at that time, you know. That did give me the confidence to say you can do do the right thing, even when somebody of power, a position of power this is somebody that filled out my annual review was trying to convince me to do something else that I could stand up to that. If that's any encouragement to any of our listeners out there to do the right thing, there you go. It worked out for me. I didn't get fired and maybe it built up a little political equity along the way. But I'm sure you have stories as well, nicole.
Nicole:Yeah, well, and I was just going to say that I mean thank you so much for sharing your story, because I think actually a lot of people have stories like that, but we don't talk about them. And so we all are like we're all afraid that if we, if we speak up and we, you know, stand by like our integrity, that we'll, you know, we'll be fired or we'll, you know, get dinged on our next review or something like that. But it didn't happen to you and you, because I feel like this is just important for all of us, just for our communities and society as a whole. We need to speak up and I mean, I'm still here, right, I'm still kicking, like you know it's working. You know, and I think you know we just we need to do more of it, like we each need to do our part, you know, because this is a.
Nicole:I feel like we're kind of at a sort of a critical breaking point in, like, our society right now. I don't want to sound like an alarmist or something you know, but like there's just more and more of this what I call moral compromise in our workplaces. You know, we're seeing layoffs when profits are through the roof. We're seeing, you know CEO compensation packages that are like so much higher than worker wages. I mean, I read this thing the other day that said productivity has increased 400 percent since 1950, but worker salaries have only gone up 200 percent Like these things are crazy. This is not good for our society as a whole, you know, because these companies can't last like this. This is not a. You can't build a lasting thing that is sustainable on that kind of a platform. Maybe we don't always see those things in our day to day. We see things more like what you saw, mark, with your boss, but that's when we need to speak up in our space. Right, we need to point out that there is another way to do this.
Mark:So relationships and conversations really come into play with this. So not saying this is like the shining example, but I did take the time to explain why I had my. You know I could have very much just stormed out of the room and not given an answer, right, but I was firm, but I was respectful and explained and I think on some level he understood and in the end respected that. But why is it so hard for us sometimes to have those relationships and those conversations? Why are those hard, especially in these situations where moral authority comes into play?
Nicole:Man. I'm like not a therapist or a psychologist or anything, but if I had to guess, I'd say why it's hard is because it requires us to be vulnerable. We have to sort of bare our souls, you know, and tell the truth of what we're seeing. We might get a negative response and that never feels good, you know. So we're worried about it and we build it up in our brains. So I feel like that's why it's hard. But I would also say that the more you do it sort of like you need to exercise the muscle right, the more you do this type of thing, the easier it gets. It's like running a marathon. You just don't go out and run like tens of miles in one day. You work your way up.
Mark:I think it takes some level of humility too, because let's be real with this topic it may be that you messed up. Do you cover it up, do you make excuses, do you blame someone else, or do you own up for it and move forward? That's never easy to do.
Nicole:That's a really good point and I think again it's for that same reason, because it makes you vulnerable vulnerable to I mean, attack is a strong word, right but like these responses from people that are not comfortable.
Mark:Taking the words from my dad don't want to be stupid, honest, don't want to say in front of the client how inept you are, but at the same time, you do build a lot of respect and you do build trust if you are honest and admit to your mistakes. So we've talked a lot about doing the right thing, but have you got some strategies that we can use when we are faced with these pivotal moments?
Nicole:Definitely. I think it helps to have sort of a I don't know a framework or something to sort of lean on when you're in these moments, right. And so I like to say you have three strategies, and I'll throw in a fourth one for free when we get there. But the first one is basically coaching up, right? So if you're observing moral compromise in your workplace and you're trying to figure out what to do, one thing you might do is try to educate or otherwise coach the leaders above you who are enacting the things that are Like. You kind of did that Mark with your boss in that example. Right, you modeled for your boss an alternative, a different way that this could be handled, instead of the more compromised approach that he was planning to use. So that's one option. Another option is to work within your sphere of influence. So this is like you're not really trying to coach up to people above you. You're really just trying to work with the people that are at your level. You know. You're trying to build alliances, find people who you know might align with you, and then you all would work together to try to affect change. I like to say that's below the ceiling. And then the third one is I call this the Paul Simon approach, which is basically to get yourself free.
Nicole:I don't know if you've ever heard the 50 Ways to Leave your Lover, that song, but that's what I think of for this one, which is you know, look, if you've tried everything else right, you tried to work with your colleagues and your friends, and that you've done what you can there, you've tried to coach up and you've, you know, had as much impact as you can, but you're still not feeling that your moral compass aligns with the moral compass of the organization you're with, then it might just be time to get out right, to exit the system altogether.
Nicole:That could mean something as simple as moving to a different team. It could mean you know a different department. It could mean leaving the company. It could be going independent. I mean there's a lot of options when you go this option and I know, mark, when you and I talked a couple days ago, we talked about it as this is sort of like the last option usually but I don't think we want to like just sort of ignore this one, because there's a lot of potential here. Life is too short to spend in a miserable job.
Mark:I was going to say, if your values are being compromised, that that that is a definition of of being in a miserable job right, exactly, exactly right.
Nicole:And then the, the fourth one for free, which is, you know, is basically you could bury your head in the sand, which actually is I. I really think it's a non-option. That was kind of a joke. Like it's just the fourth option. Isn't really a joke, right? Or isn't really an option, like that's what a lot of us do. But if you think about about the effect of the moral compromise in our work that it's having on the people in the company and the communities and the society, like we really can't just sort of like sit by and ignore this situation, right, like you really do have a responsibility to do something.
Mark:So maybe there are times, again situational, maybe there are times where you say, okay, I'm going to trust whoever this other person leadership, the company, whatever, I'm going to trust them in this one situation. But you set yourself a limit and say, okay, this is the one time I'm going to, I'm going to go out and trust that this is right. I don't think it is, but I'll. I'll disagree and I'll commit.
Nicole:Right.
Mark:And then you draw that line in the sand and maybe you say well, the next time this comes up, I'm not going to be so easy to agree. It's very easy. It's a very slippery slope to see how close you can get to the edge of the cliff before you fall off right.
Nicole:The humility that you talked about earlier in our talk is we're not always right. So we might want, before you fall off right and see how it goes.
Mark:You know, maybe we were wrong, maybe actually this is fine, or maybe we were right, and in that case then the next time we definitely want to speak up and do the right thing what about the person who's I'm just going to call them like the perfectionist or, you know, the proverbial professional and they're like to do this project right, we need to do this small task, but it's going to take us three months to do it. And on the business side, they're saying we don't have three months. We have this small window to take advantage of this market opportunity and we need to do this now. And the person on the other side might be thinking hey, I heard Nicole say you need to do the right thing and this is the right thing and I'm not going to budge on it. We're starting to get into those gray areas. Is it morally right or not? When do you compromise and when do you not? So how could you help someone there? Because I can see the tension I've seen it before between engineers and sales.
Nicole:Yeah, this is a perfect example of, like a real world moral authority situation, right, because we've got two people with different areas of expertise, so they're sure, they're very sure, right, that their thing is, that is their proposal, is the is the right answer.
Nicole:But what really needs to happen in these moments is we need to figure out how to come together rather than stay in our corners, you know, like we need to figure out how to come to consensus, bring some elements of both. Both of us probably need to compromise a little bit, you know, and lots of times in this question, in this moment, I might ask something like well, would you be willing to blah, blah, blah, right? Like, would you be willing to write half of the tests you plan to write? Or I don't know, I'm making things up at this point, right? Or or to the salesperson, the technical person might say well, would you be willing to release in a month instead of two weeks? Right? So we start to have a negotiation, basically, but sometimes negotiation sounds kind of like a dirty word, right, like it's sales, like it's sales. I don't really mean it that way, right? I mean like we're having a healthy conversation about what's best for our company and our product and us as members of the team.
Mark:I've seen an approach in that situation where it's like okay, understand that this is a market opportunity we have to take advantage of. So we're willing to make this compromise. You know, architecturally, technically, whatever you want to say we're willing to make this and do it fast now. But before we do anything else after that, you need to give us the time to make this right. So you know that's a good way to compromise and not just be my way or the highway.
Nicole:Yes, I think that's a great approach. I will say, though, I have seen that one sometimes is really hard to get to because there's a lack of trust. How many development teams have said, well, yeah, well, we tried this before. They told us we could do it later and we never got to do it right, like these things happen. That's why I'm saying we have to keep having the conversations and holding each other accountable, so that we can build the relationship and start to trust each other.
Mark:You were just getting started and you were saying that these things happen, and you were talking about you never get a chance to go back, and we've seen this before. We've seen this play out. So, nicole, we've talked about doing what's right. We've talked about having the authority do the morally right thing. We've talked about making compromises or negotiating, but one of the things we haven't touched on is how these small decisions can add up to have larger consequences over time. What insight can you give us there?
Nicole:Yeah, I guess I would just say that these things we talked about, this moral compromise in our workplace, that happens both top of the organization in the way of like layoffs and things like that, and also it's sort of the micro level when we talk about, you know, like compromising, when we might release something or whatever, like this all has like a bigger, a bigger impact. And so I would guess I would say that this, these, these business models that are like this right, that are that we might call them reactive, right they're, they're these, um, ways where we work in in a sort of knee-jerk reaction. We're not trying to build something sustainable, like when we do that and we strip the value out of the organization, we're basically extracting the value out and sending it up up to the shareholders and the people at the top of the organization. Sometimes it's called an extractive business model. Oftentimes those reactive things that we see happening are happening because the goal is to strip the value out of the organization and deliver it to the people at the top of the house.
Nicole:And you might say, well, okay, whatever, big deal, right. But I would say no, it is a big deal, because when we take the value out of the organization, then there's nothing left to put back down into the organization to invest. Well, what happens? Well, our companies collapse, right, and then after that, our communities are gutted, and then our people are without hope, and I mean society's next right Like, where do we draw the line? Again, I don't want to be alarmist, but I think it is important that even in these small moments, we step in and do our part.
Mark:So, as we start coming to a close and we start wrapping up this session, what parting advice or parting words do you have for our listeners?
Nicole:I think I would say don't give up, because this can be hard work, right. I mean, this can be kind of a heavy topic, it can be exhausting. Sometimes you feel like you're pushing a boulder uphill. I think if we all do our part, we'll see more people doing it and we'll have more support and we'll have more allies and you know, little by little we will be able to affect change, all of us together.
Mark:Not an easy thing to do all the time, but I would say it can be not only very rewarding but can really be something that you look back 20 years ago and that can be a defining moment for you.
Nicole:Yeah, well, I mean, you're still thinking about that experience you had in your early in your career, right so?
Mark:That's true.
Nicole:Yeah.
Mark:All right, Nicole, this has been great. If our listeners want to get in touch with you, which I'm sure they will, what's the best way for them to do that?
Nicole:You can get me on LinkedIn or you can get my website, which is just NicoleDurrcom.
Mark:As always, we'll put both of those links in the show notes to make it easy for everybody to get in touch with you. It's been such a pleasure here talking about leading with moral authority.
Nicole:Likewise. Thank you so much, Mark. It was a great opportunity. I appreciate it much, mark.
Mark:It was a great opportunity. I appreciate it. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Agile Within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the Agile Within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues Until next time. This has been your host, mark Metz.