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The Agile Within
Providing agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections.
The Agile Within
Collaboration 2.0 with Maria Chec
What exactly is Collaboration 2.0, and how can it transform the way your team works? Join us on "The Agile Within" as I, Mark Metze, chat with Agile coach and content creator Maria Chec from Barcelona, Spain. We kick things off with Maria sharing her insider tips on must-see sights in Barcelona, like Gaudí's masterpieces, and some invaluable travel advice for navigating this beautiful city. But that's just the beginning; Maria then dives into her groundbreaking initiative, Collaboration 2.0, aimed at evolving Agile practices beyond the traditional Scrum framework.
In our conversation, Maria and I explore the evolving role of Agile methodologies and discuss the importance of fostering collaboration within teams. I share my own experiences working across diverse teams and stakeholders to bridge gaps and ensure alignment. We uncover strategies to facilitate open dialogue, tackle cultural differences, and address unspoken issues that often hinder progress. The goal? Creating a safe environment where every team member feels heard and valued, ultimately enhancing team dynamics and driving meaningful project outcomes.
To wrap up, we reflect on the broader crisis of Agile identity and Maria’s motivations for initiating Collaboration 2.0. We also look ahead to her participation in the Agile 2024 conference in Dallas. This episode is packed with insights and practical advice for anyone invested in Agile practices. Don’t forget to stay connected with our community on LinkedIn and spread the word among your friends and colleagues. Tune in and get ready to rethink collaboration within your teams!
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariachec/
Find out more about Collaboration 2.0:
https://buymeacoffee.com/agilestateofmind
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, Mark Metz. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections. My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys, triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned. So get pumped, get rocking. The Agile Within starts now. I hope everybody's having a great day out there. This is Mark Metz with the Agile Within. For another episode Today, I have a guest that you may be familiar with. Her name is Maria Cech. Maria, welcome to the Agile Within.
Speaker 2:Hello, mark, welcome, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Great to have you. So Maria lives in Barcelona, Spain. She is an Agile coach and you likely know her as a content creator from her popular YouTube channel, Agile State of Mind. So, Maria, if I were to come to Barcelona for a day, what would be one thing that you would say I absolutely had to do?
Speaker 2:So one thing you have to do in Barcelona, you have to go for one determined walk that I will lead you through, determined walk that I will let you through. So, as you know, barcelona is famous for Gaudí and his architecture. There is a street named Passeig de Gracia and on that street you have two houses of Gaudí, and then you go straight a little bit farther and you can also see Sagrada Familia, and also on the way there are a lot of tapas places, so you can have a break and eat some good tapas, and I think that will be like the best thing you could do in Barcelona if you only have one chance.
Speaker 1:Maybe you can give me some links that I can add to the show notes in case people are interested, such as myself.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, of course, you know I do a lot of home exchange actually and I have so many links that, yeah, I will have to choose the correct ones. But, yeah, a few places that are really worth seeing and also because it's so touristic you have to. If you want to get into Sagrada Familia you have to book up front. So that's a tip because people might not know that.
Speaker 1:Good to know. All right, Maria. Well, nice to learn a little bit about where you're from. So today's episode is titled Collaboration 2.0. And it's named that because you have a new endeavor by the same name. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about what is Collaboration 2.0?
Speaker 2:Sure, it's very exciting for me because you know my channel has been there for a while and I noticed that I have been talking a little bit about Scrum and how to do Scrum, what's like basics, basics of agile. But now I noticed there is like a shift happening in the world and, uh, and I noticed that you don't need to know scrum really well as per the scrum guide. More valuable is to know different practices and respond to what is actually a determined problem that you have in a company and look more at what are the needs and what are the challenges a company, a team, has. And I thought that in the end, it all boils down to collaboration. But in the end, it all boils down to collaboration.
Speaker 2:So I remember that before, when I was talking about myself, I was presenting myself that I have a bias for collaboration. So whenever I go to whatever project I take at work or at my personal project, I always have this bias to help people collaborate, to drive alignment, to drive collaborative vision and how to get towards a goal. That's like the why behind this, and I thought that I would like to create a community or some learning path for people to get there, because, on the other hand, we also have this crisis of on one hand, we have the layoffs and on the other hand, people also say that they stop seeing the value sometimes of an agile coach or a scrum master. And for me it's very strange that even now, people ask themselves what does a scrum master do? Have you seen that?
Speaker 1:Yep absolutely.
Speaker 2:Exactly so. It's like we haven't done our job greatly if people still ask this question. So I thought, yeah, we might not have our career path so stable if we only keep to being a Scrum Master and talking about Scrum. We need to be able to go a bit farther and really help people collaborate, help solve their problems. That's why there is a lot of facilitation, because, in the end, we are making it easier for people collaborate, help solve their problems. That's why there is a lot of facilitation, because, in the end, we are making it easier for people to achieve their goal right. So there is a lot of things that go into it, but I think it's really what we should be going towards not preaching save or scrum, but more checking what you know. Scrum of scrums is a really interesting meeting for teams to come together or I really like the daily from as per scrum because it really helps the teams plan their day and look at those things. I'm really curious what do you think about this?
Speaker 1:I think it's a great take because, as you mentioned, yes, we do see many agile roles being removed. Specifically, you see scrum masters. Sometimes you see agile coaches, as when times get tough financially, those positions, people start asking do we really need these if the company is having some financial issues, right? So what I'm curious to know about Maria, was there a specific instance, situation, was there a story to tell here that was very key to you starting this Collaboration 2.0 movement?
Speaker 2:collaboration 2.0 movement. You know, I remember seeing a post about the death of Agile and the end of Scrum for like every day during a couple of weeks, and many people that I follow were saying that. And now that I'm going to Dallas for the Agile 2024 conference, I was very surprised to see something that I haven't seen by the date, which is the crisis of Agile identity. I saw there will be quite a couple of talks about the identity crisis, the Agile identity crisis, and I thought, oh, look, that's precisely what I am also seeing and what we are talking about, not to maybe call it as if it was an Armageddon, and then it's dead and Scrum is ending, so they call it an identity crisis. So I'm very curious to also go and see those talks. They usually also another. I saw that they mostly are like fishbowl structure. You know, yeah, one is called like aquarium, other one is a fishbowl. So I'm also curious. I love liberating structures and seeing them when you can actually see so many people in place. You know and use them as they were designed for. So that would be very curious. You know and use them as they were designed for. So that would be very curious.
Speaker 2:And yeah, and at some point I was like, oh my God, I have always thought that I really like helping people and I don't mind if they don't like Scrum or they want to do now Kanban. I'm like I think we can do some hybrid, just so it helps where we are. And I think those posts about the end of agile were like oh, suddenly I think that what I was thinking about is coming to some shape and I was a lot thinking about this part of collaboration 2.0 beyond frameworks. Thinking about this part of collaboration 2.0 beyond frameworks, because it's actually like you, don't we? I think it's also like we were talking. I'm saying a lot that I really love shuhari. You know I've never done a martial art, but the way they explain getting to a mastery by the shuhari is really rings a bell in my head. So my son is doing taekwondo, so now I will see if they actually mentioned that Okay.
Speaker 2:Mentioned that. Yeah, so shuhari is where you follow the rule, right? I think as the society, or tech society, tech crowd, we were following the rule of Scrum or Save or Kanban or XP for quite a long time. The next level is HA, where you know the rule and you can start breaking the rule because you already know it so well, right? So you start breaking it and we already are a bit here and re is where you set your own rule. You are a master, you now dominate the field.
Speaker 2:So I think this is where we are also as agile people. We agile people, but also the tech industry. You know the developers, the QAs. They already know Scrum. They don't need a Scrum master that will come and make sure they do everything by the book and tell them off if they were doing a sprint retrospective for sprint review and calling it a demo. That's like the worst thing you can do, right? So we all did it at some point and now and now I think it's um, it's that part where we, being mature, we can start developing our own, our own frameworks or our own ways of doing it and we don't need to do everything as per the book.
Speaker 1:I hear you. I want to dig in a little bit on the collaboration and fostering that collaboration, because you mentioned that. Give us some details about how you really foster that collaboration, because that's something that doesn't justroverted and willing to speak, but many times and I'm a former software developer myself so I can live and see this Software developers many times they're very happy doing the work of writing code, not so much actually talking about the work and communicating and coordinating with others. So how do you foster that collaboration? Are there tools, techniques? Are there anything that you use, maybe specifically for when you go into a new team and as you're working with a mature team as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have quite a few examples, and not only about a new team, but my examples are from an enterprise company, you know, a big company, where we had, like I was collaborating, like a few years back I was collaborating with over 30 teams.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So imagine, yeah, you have a new shiny project that we call initiative, of course, because we are agile, and suddenly all those people need to understand how that will work and what I see. I think I'm good at reading the room, even if it's a virtual room, so my touch points are team leads, are product owners and designers, and then on the part of the leadership, of course, the leaders who set the, the goals, the architects that define a little bit how and where we are going to go. And I remember it was very strange for me that people, when you start talking to people a bit offline and that's, I think, the strength of this collaboration you make allies and you reach out to people casually and asking them do you understand what's needed? Do you have everything you need? And then you suddenly see that no, they don't. They have a big, they have big gaps. There is some high level design by an architect, but it was never discussed, it's just there. People have a lot of questions and not everybody is even you, you speak about talking to people, but not everyone is even like empowered enough or brave enough to just add comments to the chief architect design, you know.
Speaker 2:So what I do is like I go to the leadership and I say I don't think that we are in a good place. We can't make any plan of what to do next place, we can't make any plan of what to do next. And I spoke. So I went to the UXers and I said if we could do some kind of a user journey and they have user journey presented in Miro and just have a meeting where we go through this user journey so everybody can understand what's expected, and just have post-its and add post-its to where we don't understand something. And when I went there at the beginning I was like I have no clue. I am not a technical person. This is very technical. It was like cloud native solution, you know. But if you just as a facilitator, it's like really facilitator skills. You know a few things and you just try to make it happen.
Speaker 2:And people started. I tried to understand what are the main groups that work together when it comes to those POs or team lead. And then I said so now that we know already, let's go into breakout room and let's discuss those answers and get those questions. So I just made sure there are the architects, there are the UXers and the people that will do the job, the team representatives, and it was such a great.
Speaker 2:You know, it lasted days, because it was like one two hour workshop one day, another, another day, but there were almost like 100 people on it. But still, you know, getting all those people together, you could see that this is why you like your work and this is what brings you this joy and satisfaction, because you are learning something new and understanding it. And also, from my side, it was amazing to see. I was so stressed before it and then I saw how people directly jumped in because they know each other, they collaborate. They just needed this basis, somebody to bring them together. And this is how I think we can do like a really important and valuable job, as agile people, as facilitators, as people that foster collaboration.
Speaker 1:I want to see if you agree with this. One of the things that I've found as a coach is that you talked about reading the room and understanding the dynamics that are going on in that room. I've found that many times it's important for our role to make sure that the questions that aren't being asked. There are some very important questions that you can see formulating but nobody is bringing it up for any number of reasons up Maybe they don't want to. I'm giving air quotes here, get someone in trouble for asking a question. But as coaches, I think we can really show our value by bringing those elephants in the room, announcing those and then giving people the freedom to be able to okay, it's out there, now I can actually talk about it, but before until it's actually stated, it's very tough to get someone to break the ice and to actually talk about it. What do you think about that, maria?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I'm nodding so that you understand what I'm doing here. Yeah, it's true, I talked to you a bit before that I'm not so used to podcast format because I'm very expressive, so I have to say that I'm nodding now. Yeah, definitely agree with you, and this is also at the same project that we had, where there were so the us and then we had people from portugal working together and they were not used to working together, not to mention used to working cross-culturally. So, yeah, so there was also this cultural gap and I thought so.
Speaker 2:I decided to create an AMA session, like ask me anything, where the VP of technology that was leading this project and the main architect and other architects were there to answer questions from the teams. So I was expecting people to come with questions, but people were coming to just questions from the teams. So I was expecting people to come with questions, but people were coming to just see what will happen. They were, for sure, having their questions on their mind, but they were not feeling comfortable enough to share them. So, because I talked to those people and I know what their questions are, I was like, okay, to those people and I know what their questions are. I was like, okay, so I will be asking those questions even though I don't need those answers for myself. Like, so I started asking those questions for them just what you described and I started a conversation so those technical leads could start understanding where my questions go and start giving the answers, giving more context, and then, when they were explaining people out, okay, to also ask their questions.
Speaker 2:But it really was necessary for me to be this person to ask them for them at the beginning. So, yeah, I agree, it's, it's really important, um, it's very important to to get those skeletons out of the closet and get the elephant in the room and and not be but. But, yeah, but, for that you need to have this connections with people previously so you know what are their questions, even though they're not asking them right. So this is all this work of getting familiar, talking to people. Sometimes I would see somebody like not happy on the meeting. That you can already see by facial expression, and I always work in remote so I don't see these people. I've never met them, but I could see that. And then I see by the questions they ask that they don't get it. They are not getting the answers they expect, and this is all the work that, like you, do in the background so that later on you can help them you mentioned knowing people and having a relationship.
Speaker 1:I have a story. I did not build the relationship and how that really came back to bite me.
Speaker 1:So I was new to a company and was trying to produce value, like we all do when we, when we join a company right, we want to. We want to prove our worth and make sure that people know that we are actually adding value to our teams and to our company. And I noticed that there was some work going on. And as we were going through daily scrum and we were walking the board, we were looking and this one very senior person on the team was mentioning some work that he was doing, but it wasn't on the board and I didn't have a relationship with him at all. And I didn't have a relationship with him at all and probably the way that I brought it up too. I just was matter of fact, just kind of, hey, is that work on the board? And he was like, well, no, it's just something I'm working on. And I was like, well, I think it would be helpful for visibility to put that on the board so that everybody is aware of what's going on. And that came across as very confrontational, very challenging to him, and we started off on a little bit of a rocky road in the beginning.
Speaker 1:It took some time to get to know this person and for them to get to know me. I just had to be very humble and just say hey, I really didn't mean to put you on the spot, I apologize. I was probably in my get it. You on the spot, I apologize, I was probably in my get it done. Mode is what I say sometimes. I just like to sometimes just cut right to the chase and let's just get to the point and get it done.
Speaker 1:But I said that's not me. If you know me, I'm a very likable person, or I like to think that I am. People tell me that. So if you just give me another chance, I think we could work together better. So we've repaired that relationship. We actually have a very good working relationship now and kind of understand each other. But I think that just sheds some light on a way that we're trying to do the right thing. But if you don't have a relationship, my admonition would just be very careful in how you enter that because it could come across the wrong way. If somebody doesn't know you Does that ring any bells to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. Also, just by you know, people have some prejudice in their head because they had a scrum master before or an agile coach and they sometimes might project that view on you. Like recently, we went into a room thinking about how to best do a kickoff for a platform that we are now creating, like for the developer. So the customer is the developer and it's hard, it's very technical, and I went to the whiteboard and started saying you know, guys, I think we should do it in like three steps and this is how we should explain this. And those were obviously technical people with me and they were like looking at me and saying, maria, but I thought you were just this agile person.
Speaker 1:Just this agile person. Just this agile person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and now you're explaining here the technical part, how we're going to explain it. So they were so surprised because, of course, it's like people have predetermined ways of thinking of how an agile coach is, because they worked with one before or they never did, but they thought what they read on Reddit, you know. So. So yeah, and I was like okay. So you thought I'm like this flower power agile coach and suddenly I can understand what's going on in the room, surprise. So yeah, I think that's that's the.
Speaker 2:And I really liked what you said because it shows what we preach. We preach that we should give feedback, we should try to do something better and, you know, act on something that we so continuously improve, basically, and you did that. You went back and you said, said hey, I think we might have started off on the wrong foot and I'm not like that. I would like you to know me better and I might have did something not great. And this is how we also lead by example, right. So we really give an example of how it's okay. We all make mistakes and we just acknowledge them and move on, and I think it's great that you did that, and it's hard to do it.
Speaker 1:How do you do that? In a team of you said you were, you were helping 30 teams to collaborate. I mean, how does that scale? Because you can't really have a personal one-on-one understanding with everybody in all 30 teams, right? So how do you? How do you do that?
Speaker 2:that's uh. Yeah, that's true, and I was quite overwhelmed at the beginning, especially given that I'm not in the most of the people that go to the office not maybe every day, but they from time to time meet each other, so they know each other. I met them once and when I started working and we did all that stuff that I explained this workshop, I haven't met anyone ever. So I noticed that, yeah, but I noticed that there are people that are like really born leaders and other people follow them. When you know and identify who those are and those are really the people that will ask more questions, will have more opinions, will maybe be sometimes the more like you would think it's a log art or like very skeptical person, but those really help because they you can see that they care. So I usually try to find, to identify those people and I think now I'm trying to like, dissect it how I do it.
Speaker 2:For me, it's just natural that I try to talk to people that talk most or have most opinions, even if they disagree with what I do or with how we do stuff, and I try to create relationships with them because once you have them on board, it's like the when you go with the adoption right and and you have the early adopters. You have the innovators, the early adopters and then the late majority. They will follow after those early adopters. So I try to understand which are those, and also especially the ones that seem like laggards. You know, those having the most skeptical people, those that give you everything that might go badly. This is like the best person that you should be friends of, because they will tell you everything that you need to find solution for resolve, and this way your work is so much easier. So, as opposed to people who usually look at those like, ah, this person always is a troublemaker. No, listen to them when you get to.
Speaker 2:And I remember once there was a guy that was like that and he was a product owner and I thought he hated me with his whole life and I only thought that and I started talking to him every time I had some problem or I didn't know how to announce something or I needed some input, and I was always asking him and I think he started appreciating that and he also saw that. You know, this is why she is doing this. She really tries to understand it and he was giving me advice and I remember that later on we were really, we had the great collaboration and he was sometimes asking me like how would I do something? You know, that was for me the biggest praise you can ever get.
Speaker 1:Very nice.
Speaker 1:I have a soft spot for the quiet people, the ones that don't feel as comfortable speaking up.
Speaker 1:And as I've reflected on myself I see even back into when I was in high school and middle school I've always had that soft heart for somebody that was new to the school, that was new to the company or whatever and just didn't feel comfortable. And you just always saw them quiet and maybe didn't interact with people. And many times those people have a lot to say because they're not busy talking, they're taking all the information in and they're not spending their time talking. So I frequently like to go to those people and try to open them best of the best that comes forth, and not just the ones that are always talking. And I think there's a place to employ both of those strategies, if you will, from what you were talking about, because I do think it's important for you to identify as a coach, to identify who are the leaders of the team, to see what they are seeing. But I would also say, don't forget about the quiet ones, because they're sitting back observing and they probably have a different perspective. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very good point. And now that you say this, I also noticed that sometimes I would talk to those that I rarely speak to and get some really interesting idea, and I remember being super surprised but how a person with so great ideas and observations is just sitting quiet there and not trying to show them and be visible. So definitely good observation and good advice and that's why we also do all those liberating structures right.
Speaker 2:Trying to make sure, or when we do a retrospective, we ask everyone to put their post-its, not only the the leaders, and that's actually something that I remember. I was doing a workshop in a different company and there were always the four or five people speaking and you know, because I already had a good relationship with them and I knew that they are like, they like joking and so on, so I was just like, yes, so right now I would like to ask these questions and please, tiago, you like and ask tiago not to answer it. Okay, so sometimes you can just add some um, some jokes and some fun to it. It recently I saw a post from evelyn, and she's from sevia and she was asking that, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So she was asking about something that happened to me as well that when we do workshops and just by doing a workshop you would imagine, people know that there will be interaction, but by the moment you get to hello, so now we will do some breakout room, half of the people drop, yeah, but then you know. So there are two ways of this, because when I responded to her and I said you know what I did recently, a workshop Like this happened to me once that people dropped before the breakout rooms. So recently I did a workshop in my company and I told people so there will be some breakout rooms and I will disable the leave button by then so that we stay here sneaky, sneaky you're right.
Speaker 2:But you know, just getting this elephant out of the room helped that people really didn't drop and I said, if you don't want to collaborate, it's OK, you might not do it, you don't have to, but it will be great to just see what others did, you know. So I think, yeah, we have to think about ways to involve the quiet ones is to involve the quiet ones, but then also and it's something that I learned yesterday because I was reading the chat from the conference, from the Agile 2024. And they said that they are trying to identify the talks or the workshops, like the talks that don't have much interaction, because there are people that just don't feel comfortable and they really shrivel at the moment of thinking now turn to your neighbor and discuss, and it's where they don't feel comfortable and I remember how many times I didn't feel comfortable doing that. So now I see that we are also doing some tables that could be like you know.
Speaker 2:Know, there are, I don't know, let's say, seven tables only in the room that I will be facilitating and I'm thinking about putting one or two of them and saying those are the quiet rooms for your own work.
Speaker 2:You don't have to interact, but still, you can still take some value of the workshop. If you do it on your own, it's not a problem. And then there are tables where there will be interaction with the others. So I think it's also something I haven't thought about, that I remember I actually once asked somebody who was never participating in those sessions and he told me that he just doesn't like to speak Publicly. And even asked, you know, even asked directly, he wouldn't say anything. He was so uncomfortable and I would never want to put somebody, you know, in such an uncomfortable position. So I think this is also something important to take into account. There are people that are okay to talk and interact and there are those that you can go and ask privately and they will be happy to share their opinion, but not just asking everyone to contribute if they don't feel like.
Speaker 1:I think too that there are people that maybe they're not comfortable speaking up. That doesn't mean that they're never going to be comfortable speaking up. Once they absorb the interaction that's going on and they get more comfortable over time with it, of just observing, they can kind of ease into it. But it can be very jarring to somebody who is very introverted to just throw them into a breakout room, especially an in-person one, and say, okay, now we're going to collaborate and we need for you to speak and we need to hear your opinions on this. That can be quite scary for some people. But if they have the opportunity to ease into it and see, observe that maybe they might be willing to be more open to participating later on. Have you seen that?
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree. And now I'm thinking how difficult it is for us to really be able to spot those differences. Spot those differences, and it has to. We really need to pay attention as coaches to okay, we, we know those people that always speak. We have those people that that will not speak if you ask them, and I think there are those that just don't, will not. And then you have those, this third group, that they are not yet comfortable but they might be in the future. Right, there is a potential and they just need to overcome some shyness. And it's actually interesting.
Speaker 2:I was talking once I have an interview when I was doing interviews with engineering managers for my channel. I spoke to my brother and we are the most opposite people you can find. And yeah, and it's interesting because he said, you can learn to be extrovert. It's not that you are introverted forever. So he says that, even though at our family, if you ask anyone, they will tell you he's an introverted person. He said that if you ask people from my company, my teammates, they would say I'm an extrovert and it's also based on at work.
Speaker 2:He feels that he is an expert, he knows what he's talking about, he sees how he can contribute and help others if he speaks because he already knows the solutions and he knows that there is a different way to do things. But at home, you know, especially when you have, like, a family dinner and the conversation is about the newest series or vacation, where he's not the expert or knows best, he just doesn't contribute so much. So I think this is also interesting to know. That it's also like when we talk about facilitation you don't have to be an extrovert that has high energy and looks everybody in the eye. You can learn to be even being introverted. You can learn some techniques and tools, like, for example, the liberating structures or any other templates that are there, and you can be a great facilitator without being a super extroverted person. So I think this is interesting, but, yeah, it requires us to pay a lot of attention.
Speaker 1:Well, maria, the time has flown by. As we're starting to wrap up here and coming to an end, I'm sure people will want to get in touch with you. If they aren't already, dialed into the Agile state of mind. What's the best way for them to reach out to you?
Speaker 2:I think, the best way. So I created my community and it's just starting and it's summer so it's going slow, but we already have some live sessions. So it's on buy me a coffee slash Agile state of mind sessions. So it's on buymeacoffeecom slash azurestateofmind so you can check. It's a membership but you can just try for a month and see what we are talking about. I think LinkedIn is a very good place to just send a message, very easy to find and, yeah, I'm happy for people to reach out and talk. It's great to exchange ideas.
Speaker 1:We'll add links to both of those in the show notes, for sure, so that people can contact you. Well, maria, this has been fascinating. I almost feel like we need a second session because there's so much I want to get into and start talking about some of the other details of all this regarding collaboration and otherwise that we've talked about, but I really appreciate your time. Today has been very helpful for me and hopefully it has been for our listeners as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. It was yeah. I also feel that we could keep on talking for hours. So it's so yeah, it has been a great conversation and thank you for inviting me. I feel really happy to be here and share with people our view, so hope to talk to you soon.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Best of luck on the Collaboration 2.0 endeavor that you have going on. Keep us posted on how that's going and that'll bring an end to another episode of the agile within. Thanks everybody so much and we'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the agile within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the agile within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues Until next time. This has been your host, mark Metz.