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The Agile Within
Providing agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections.
The Agile Within
Neurodiversity in Scrum Teams and Why it Matters with Anita Kalmane-Boot
What if the key to unlocking your team's full potential lies in understanding the unique ways our brains function? Join us in this fascinating episode of The Agile Within, where we sit down with Anita Kalmane-Boot, a Scrum Master from Eastern Netherlands, who sheds light on the critical importance of neurodiversity in Agile teams. Anita breaks down the differences between neurotypical and neurodivergent individuals, emphasizing why these distinctions are essential for creating inclusive and high-performing Scrum teams. Discover how fostering an environment of psychological safety and crafting inclusive team agreements can empower neurodivergent team members to thrive.
Unemployment is a significant challenge for neurodivergent individuals, not due to their lack of willingness to work, but because of systemic barriers. Anita and I explore the necessity for companies to embrace diverse working arrangements and create inclusive environments that cater to various needs. We discuss the growing acceptance within industries like technology, where flexible work hours and environments are becoming the norm. Learn about the initiatives and advocacy efforts in Western Europe that are paving the way for a more inclusive workforce, and how companies can benefit from tapping into this often-overlooked talent pool.
Unlock the unique strengths that neurodivergent individuals bring to Agile teams, from creativity to out-of-the-box thinking. Anita shares practical strategies for improving team dynamics, including the creation of personal manuals to understand each team member’s work preferences and needs.
Connect with Anita on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/anitakalmane/
Book Suggestions:
Neurotribes: The Legacy of Autism and the Future of Neurodiversity
"Dirty Laundry: Why Adults with ADHD Are So Ashamed and What We Can Do to Help"
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Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, mark Metz. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections. My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned. So get pumped, get rocking. The Agile Within starts now.
Speaker 1:Before we get started with our episode, I'd like to share a short message with you. I'd like to share a short message with you. If you're a Scrum Master, agile Coach or just into Agile, I've got something you absolutely don't want to miss. It's the Online Scrum Master Summit happening June 25th to 27th and, best of all, it's totally free. This virtual summit is perfect for anyone wanting to level up their skills, whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro. You'll hear from some top-notch speakers like Bob Galen, getta Klitgaard, martin Dallmein and Sandy Momoli. They'll be joined by many other great speakers sharing their best tips, tricks and techniques to help you grow in your role. Trust me, this is a great chance to get inspired and empowered in your Agile journey. So go ahead and sign up at onlinescrummastersummitcom. And now on with the show. Well, welcome back to the Agile Within. This is Mark Metz, your host. Our guest today is from Eastern Netherlands and her name is Anita Kalmane-Boot. Anita, welcome to the Agile Within.
Speaker 2:Hello, thank you for having me. It's an honor.
Speaker 1:Being from Eastern Netherlands, I've never been there. So let's say I was coming for a day. What would you say was one thing that I absolutely couldn't miss doing?
Speaker 2:I'll be very stereotypical and say you should obviously rent a bike, because that's what we are known for. This part of the country has a lot of forests and it's a bit less flats than Amsterdam area, so you should still rent a bike and just go for a ride through the forests. It's going to be amazing and you will fall in love and you will want to move here and never go back, because cycling is amazing here.
Speaker 1:Are electric assisted bikes common in the Netherlands?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and especially I live in the countryside, and in the countryside it's a big thing. So there actually have been quite a lot of articles and my husband actually is working in specifically that field. So I could talk for hours. But more and more people are using it and it's not always a good thing. It has quite some drawbacks.
Speaker 1:I see that's for another day.
Speaker 2:Definitely.
Speaker 1:I want to introduce you to our listeners. So Anita is an agilist and she's a scrum master during the day and her superpowers are. She's a neurodivergent human being and neurodiversity advocate 24-7. Why don't you give us a definition of what is neurodiversity?
Speaker 2:So, if you ask me, neurodiversity is the way how our brains function and, to be more specific, different ways how our brains function. So most of the people in the world at this point are what we call neurotypical, which means that their brains function like most of the society around 80%. It doesn't mean it's all the same, but there are certain simple rules they follow without knowing. They follow them For neurodivergence. The brains work differently and there are quite a lot of differences between the society of neurodiversity. So for those around 20% of population, they are minority and it's sometimes hard to learn how to get used to living in a world which, as we say, was not built for you, and you often notice it too late, because it takes quite some time to notice that you are a bit different than the rest. It's not good or bad, it's just different. So, shortly, it's a different way how the brains function and are made up.
Speaker 1:Why does it matter in scrum teams? So you're an agilist and you're a scrum master. What do you take in consideration with neurodiversity when you lead your teams?
Speaker 2:That's a very broad question. I'm lucky or at least I would think I'm lucky that I get to work with people where I know that they're neurodivergent. I get to work with people who have ADHD, who have autism, obsessive compulsory disorder, dyslexia, and so on and so on. So for me, as a Scrum Master, it is important to know what I can expect from them and what I cannot, and what are the team rules and agreements we need to make as a team so everybody would be included and nobody would feel left out. And by knowing that neurodiversity is a thing, by understanding it, I think it's easier for me as a scrum master to cater to my team and make sure that even minority voices get heard.
Speaker 1:What work do you do within the team to make sure that there is psychological safety for people that are neurodivergent?
Speaker 2:First and foremost, I like to bring awareness about the topic because I think it's something we all know about. When you look around and you think of do you know a family member, a friend, a colleague, somebody who is neurodivergent, more likely than not the answer will be yes, I do, but how often do you talk about that with other people? So by understanding that everybody knows somebody and there's a very big chance that you work with colleagues who are neurodivergent you also need to understand what it means. So just thinking about it is thing number one. And what does it mean for me?
Speaker 2:As a Scrum Master In the company, I have organized a couple of talks about neurodiversity where we have brought in external speakers. In the last one, luckily, we also got an internal speaker, which was very nice because you see the psychological safety so high that somebody within the department was willing to talk about what they struggle and where can they be good at, because there are quite a lot of strengths, what they have, what maybe neurotypicals don't have. So spreading awareness and talking, sharing resources is definitely something I do, and also when we make team agreements, I try to make sure that they are not something what majority would only want, but that we do think about people who think a bit differently. For example, what do we do when somebody is late to a meeting? How do we communicate that? Do we need to communicate that or do we just let it go? What are the times people are available? How do you approach people?
Speaker 2:We have quite some extrovert colleagues who obviously like to approach people just by standing up and walking to somebody's desk, which might not work for somebody who is autistic, for example. So how do you explain it to those people who never thought about hey, maybe I should drop some message? How do you make them aware and think, hey, as a team, this is a way how we communicate when we want something from each other, and obviously there needs to be a certain level of psychological safety. But by giving those very simple questions, everybody can answer and come to a conclusion as a team. I think that already helps. And often you try to lead by example and say this is what would work for me or this is what would not work for me, and by you opening up, you see other people start opening up as well and once there is vulnerability, subpsychological safety just goes up and up.
Speaker 1:What's that process like? So I can imagine, when you're coming to a new team and you're trying to establish that baseline or that stance and you mentioned the word neurodiversity and maybe it's not as familiar to some people Do you see people that get their pupils get dilated? They start maybe sweating a little bit or getting nervous and not knowing where you're going to go, just because it's something that's foreign to them?
Speaker 2:To be honest, this is the first company where I'm so active in the field of neurodiversity. In the previous company I started doing something, but it was still in the child's shoes, as we say in Dutch, so I'm not sure if I have the right answer. But what I do notice is if I talk about it in general so I don't talk about people in the company, but I mention it. I mentioned previous colleagues, I mentioned friends, some resources. That already sets the ground that people get used to it.
Speaker 2:In my first weeks I often heard people saying oh, I read your LinkedIn posts this and LinkedIn posts that, and I have never been reading so much LinkedIn before. But now, when you're in the company, I see it nonstop. So it's a bit easier for them because I don't force them to do things. They just get exposed to it and they can choose if to follow or not. And then I check is this something people are interested in? So if I have heard from a colleague that my colleague is neurodivergent, does they want to talk about it or is it something they want to forget and not being mentioned? And I'm very lucky to have colleagues who are open, who like talking about it, so it's not a taboo here, and I know that it's not like that in all companies.
Speaker 1:How did you get started learning about neurodiversity? What was it that drove you in this direction?
Speaker 2:That was actually quite a long time ago around 10 years, I want to say take or leave it. And I learned that a very good friend of mine has ADHD. And that came as a surprise because I had my own stereotypes about ADHD and they were all about hyperactive kids who cannot sit, who are not very good in school, who are screaming, you name it. We have all heard those stereotypes and my friend is not that type of person. My friend is very calm, very easygoing, really good at listening, easygoing, really good at listening.
Speaker 2:That didn't fit any of the stereotypes I had and I was like, okay, I hear you, but what does it mean that you have ADHD? What are your symptoms? What do you struggle in your daily life? And I learned so much about that condition through my friend and now I understand why they're struggling, I understand what helps they get. But it made me realize how little did I know. And then, a few years later, I had almost the same conversation with another friend who was diagnosed with autism, where I also said but wait a minute, it doesn't fit my stereotypes, my very limited image I have from mass media, and you're the first person who openly states it. So what does that really mean, and then talking and learning more about it. I got drawn into it and then there was no way back.
Speaker 1:Well, anita, what I'm getting from your conversation is, yes, we need to have empathy for neurodiverse individuals, but at a broader sense, we really need to be more accepting and inclusive of everyone on our teams, and that's really where the best ideas come from, not when you just surround yourself with people just like yourself who agree with maybe a mindset or things that you agree with, but you have a diverse set of perspectives. What would you say about that?
Speaker 2:I think that's definitely true, and I think neurodiversity is one of the things which is very easily forgotten because it's not something physically visible.
Speaker 2:When you think about teams you have worked at Mark and you think about diversity I'm assuming and you tell me if I'm have worked at Mark and you think about diversity I'm assuming, and you tell me if I'm correct or not the first thing you would think is gender and race, because those are things which are very visible. Then you can think of age, to make sure you have people from different generations, maybe some physical disabilities, but everything what's not visible is so hard not even to measure but to grasp. Not visible is so hard not even to measure but to grasp. It's something you are not allowed to ask people. So how do you really make sure you have those teams who are as diverse as possible, that there are people also with simply different opinions and there are people with different political preferences. There are people who are more introverts and people who are more extroverts, and how do you balance that all in the team? That's a very hard task, right?
Speaker 1:It's a hard task but I feel like it's worth the effort. And I'll preface that by saying there are some people that work for nonprofits, but for a vast majority of us we're probably working for a for-profit company, and if we're in software, we're developing products that are sold, and just from a mere profit viewpoint, you want to make products that appeal to everyone. So why would it not benefit you to have neurodivergent individuals so that your products would appeal to those individuals as well? And those are like you say. It's not a physical thing that you can see, so it's harder to just identify that. It seems like it would be much easier and much more robust to have individuals within the team to be able to bake that component in.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And the sad part is when you look at statistics worldwide, most of neurodivergent people are unemployed, and it's not because they don't want to work, it's because it's hard to find work For some of us. It's easier to show the world that we appear to be I don't want to say normal, but it's not so visible so it's easier to get job interviews, to get hired. It doesn't mean it's easier to work, but there are people who work in the good functions, in very high functions, and who have successful careers. But there is a vast majority who would like to work but who cannot even get a job interview, and I know there are companies specializing in placing those people in workplace and you can give them very good jobs as well, as long as you cater for them, as long as you understand them and as long as you are prepared. Maybe introductions take a bit longer, maybe you need a different approach, but in the long run it's good for society as well, not only for the company. So it's actually win-win. You just need to invest your time and energy.
Speaker 1:I wonder where that breaks down, because if you're saying they're not even getting an interview, how would a potential company know that someone is neurodivergent in the job searching process?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so some people choose to disclose themselves for good reasons with an idea If they don't like me who I am, I don't want to work there, and that's beautiful. I wish there would be more people doing like this. But it's not always safe, especially because discrimination is still a thing. Some people might not disclose it during the job interview process, but only afterwards and depending on a company. Sometimes you have those fields you need to fill to say if you are part of one or another minority, so they would be gathering statistics. But often there are people not even trying, or who have tried and who are giving up.
Speaker 2:There are people who might not be able to work full time, but maybe you could work 10 hours per week. But if the society says we only accept people who work 40 hours a week or more and we don't have any part-time functions, they can't even apply. Or there are people who say it's easier for me to work from home or to work in regular hours. I cannot say every day from 9 to 12, I would be available. So actually the society needs to change quite a lot to give different kinds of jobs to people who are willing to invest their resources. But we're not there yet. Small steps.
Speaker 1:That is a big jump and I believe that companies would have to be very intentional about it, especially given today's job market where there aren't as many positions open. So if you have an employer who's not specifically looking to have diverse opinions and diverse viewpoints brought to the table, then it's like your example you have someone that can't work nine to five, but you have someone that can 200 candidates that have applied. If they're not specifically looking for that diversity, then they're just going to default to what they've always looked for.
Speaker 2:And who says nine to five is actually the right way? Who says you need to be in the office five days per week? Luckily, during COVID we saw remote work is possible, but I hear more and more stories of companies going back to being in the office as much as possible, and I don't know if there is a very serious research being done, but there are a lot of suspicions that one of the reasons why research and development and technology has so many people who are neurodivergent is because we are more open. There are many more remote opportunities you could be doing, often in scrum teams.
Speaker 2:You're not expected to be specifically at eight o'clock in the office. As long as you are on time agreed with the team, you can seem a little what I would call off as in you can show your personality, you can be a bit different. I would call off as in you can show your personality, you can be a bit different and that's accepted. So that's like a safe place for a lot of people. It doesn't mean they can always be 100 of themselves, but that's much easier than working in a supermarket where you need to interact with different kinds of people nonstop, without a break, and always have a fake smile.
Speaker 1:So in your experience, have you seen any difference in the acceptance of neurodiversity globally?
Speaker 2:I have seen it being more spoken about in the last few years, disclaimer and say maybe that's because I live in my own small bubble, where I'm exposed on LinkedIn, especially on people who think like me. So the more neurodiversity advocates I follow, the more information I see, and it's like a vicious circle. But still, I think, in Western Europe at least, there's more and more attention. You see bigger companies having employee resource groups dedicated to that. You see Neurodiversity Pride Days and Autism Acceptance Week and many more resources. So I think there is more information and if there's more information, there's more awareness and people are coming out and talking about it. It's still not enough, but it's a good start. What have you seen in the US? Because I know you are not so exposed to neurodiversity so you live in a different bubble. If somebody would ask this question to you, what's your experience?
Speaker 1:So starting to see more about it in LinkedIn and in meetup groups, to see more about it in LinkedIn and in meetup groups. What would be interesting is to go back and see how many of those are European-based speakers and authors that talk about that. So I do see it more now than I have here over in the States within the last, I'd say, two or three years, five years, something like that. But I'm not going to say that it's talked about a lot and that's my bubble. Take that from Mark, don't take that from North America in general.
Speaker 2:No, no, but I'm interested in your bubble because even if I'm in Europe and you are in the US, it doesn't mean I have only European problems. View, I have my own bubble, you have your own bubble. It's just they're very different bubbles and it's interesting to see what we see. So I would be interested indeed what you say if most content you see is european made or not. I have seen a lot coming from the uk as well. I'm seeing some things coming from the us. I want to say most of the information I get is from Europe, but I don't always check who originally wrote it, as long as it's a language I can understand right.
Speaker 1:Right. Give us some examples of how neurodiverse people, how they can use their strengths, or how their strengths can be leveraged.
Speaker 2:That's a wonderful question and I think that's something often forgotten about, because when you talk about neurodiversity, the first thing people think about are the challenges, the problems, but there is so much more what people could be benefiting if they only understand the strengths. So, really happy you're asking the first. What I can think of is creativity and thinking out of the box, and that's something what is similar to most of neurodivergent people. So, no matter if you have dyslexia, dyspraxia, adhd or something else, you have learned from being already very small on how to adapt to a world which is a bit different. You have learned how to look to things in a way others will not, because you are in a way different. You have learned how to look to things in a way others will not because you are in a way different. So you have this different view which gives you very unique ideas. You just need to unleash them. You need to use them. So being creative and thinking out of the box is definitely top In terms of people with autism.
Speaker 2:One thing they're really good at is being honest and being straight to the point, if you want to hear when something is going bad or if you want to hear an opinion which is not censored due to people being afraid that they're too polite.
Speaker 2:There's the right people to ask, and they have also a very high sense of it needs to be honest for everybody. So, no matter if I'm talking to the CEO, to the product owner, senior developer, junior intern, I'm treating everybody equally, and that's a very, very good skill which could be used in the right way. I hear a lot about very nice website designs made by people who have troubles with dyslexia or dyscalculia, for example, because they make it in a way which is also easier for people who are partially blind, who are colorblind maybe, who are older generation and need bigger fonts. There are specific fonts developed for people with dyslexia, but that works not only for them. It works for anybody who has a reading disability, and there are so many more people like that. Is that what I can think of? Is that enough to start with?
Speaker 1:That's great you did mention earlier. I heard you mention dyspraxia, and that's a term that I'm not familiar with. What is that?
Speaker 2:Dyspraxia is one of the neurodiversity conditions I haven't heard myself a lot about and there are a rather few amount of people who have it, which is why you and me don't know a lot about it. I met recently somebody who has it and that was a fascinating talk and I hope I'm not going to say anything wrong. But from what I I understand, dyspraxia also influences your physical ability abilities. For example, you might have issues holding small objects in your hands. You might fall much easier.
Speaker 2:Um, your, your legs might not walk always how you want them to walk, and you would think, but that sounds like just a physical disability, right, it sounds like something in the body, and no, it's actually. The brain is wired in a way that they send signals to your physical body which acts differently, and that was something new for me because so far I thought, oh, it's all only about in the brain, so you cannot really see it, and so on. But there are quite some signs you could be seeing, depending on the condition. Hope I didn't say anything wrong. Hope I haven't offended anybody. Go and Google for people who don't know about it a lot, like me and Mark.
Speaker 1:Well, that's great. So thank you, you educated me today because I had not heard of that. So, as we're starting to wrap up our conversation here, I see a common theme is bringing it back to being Agilist and being scrum masters is how can we include everybody on the team and making them feel safe without without doing harm? What advice would you give for Agilists and for scrum masters, for agile coaches, anybody in the agile realm? What advice would you give us to for working with neurodivergent people?
Speaker 2:My advice number one would be making sure that the team knows each other. It's not only you as a scrum master who knows your team members, but they really know each other and they understand each other, no matter if they're neurodivergent or not. Ask them to create what I call a personal manual. What's the best way they prefer to work? For example, are you a morning person or not? Do you prefer that somebody calls you or somebody sends you a Slack message? Do you like coming to meetings prepared or you're very fine brainstorming during the meeting? Do you need a lot of information in advance or you're very fine brainstorming during the meeting? Do you need a lot of information in advance or you prefer not to All that kind of questions, no matter if you are neurodivergent or not. That really helps everybody in the team and you can also discuss it as a team.
Speaker 2:If five people prefer one way and one person prefers another way, it doesn't mean that that one person needs to always suffer. Maybe there are ways you can include everybody so everybody feels equally valued, and I have seen such personal manuals really opening up very nice conversations and changing team conversations, because who says the daily needs to be in the morning when you wake up. Yes, for most people that works, but there is no rule in the scrum guide. It says it needs to be that way. So don't follow stupid rules simply because everybody's doing it. Check what really works with your team. That would be number one and number two what you already mentioned about psychological safety.
Speaker 2:If you see people are struggling, if you see some team agreements are not being followed, don't assume the worst, but maybe check personally with people what's happening, how safe they feel. Maybe there's something in their private lives. And it's often said, if you help people who are neurodivergent and if they can work in the right environment, you actually help many more people. You help those who are introverts. You help people with chronical diseases. You help people who have physical disabilities. You help pretty much everybody by making it as inclusive as possible.
Speaker 1:Do you have any resources that maybe you could share with our listeners? I like the. What did you call it the personal maps? Is that call it the personal maps Is?
Speaker 2:that personal manual.
Speaker 1:The personal manual. Do you have any advice or do you have any resources for our listeners that they could refer to on creating these personal manuals that you mentioned?
Speaker 2:To be honest, I just Googled last time I was creating one. I just Googled it because I think it depends a lot on your company culture and your team culture. Create one, what works with your team. I am a crazy book reader so I can definitely recommend some good books If you are interested in learning more about ADHD. The last book I read is called Dirty Laundry and it's about a British couple where one of them has ADHD and the partner doesn't, and how do they live with it. And it's a very useful book, also for work, because it gives a lot of tips how can you help somebody with ADHD and for people who have ADHD, how can you help yourself, how can you accept you and what are things you can change in yourself and what are things you cannot. So Dirty Laundry for ADHD and for autisms.
Speaker 2:There's a wonderful book. It's a big thing, so it's called Neurotribes and it goes explaining a lot of the history. I like history. I'm not totally biggest history nerd ever, but what I like about this book? It gives enough history to understand why we have wrong misconceptions, why we have stereotypes, why we don't know enough and what we know might not always be true, because it talks about how the situation has changed and how the research has changed throughout the years. I found it very easy to read and very fascinating. So that's NeuroDrives. And once you start following a couple of people on LinkedIn and reading the books, you will automatically come in the neurodiversity bubble. And of course, not to forget, 16th of June, if this goes out before, is Neurodiversity Pride Day, where quite a lot of different events are being organized. If you go to neurodiversitypridedaycom, you will see quite a lot of resources.
Speaker 1:Well exploring our biases. I think that's something that every good agilist should be concerned with. So this has been a wonderful talk, anita. I appreciate you coming on so much, taking the time to be with us. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Mark. Can I give a final disclaimer?
Speaker 1:Please do.
Speaker 2:If you have been listening to us and you're still listening at the last minutes and you found it interesting and you want to learn more, or if you just like adding people on LinkedIn, I want to give a disclaimer If you want to add me, you're very welcome to try doing it, but please add the personal message, because I personally really don't like getting notifications from people I'm not familiar with without any information and then I feel like are they just collecting friends or something? If there is a message and if you're telling hey, I listened to Mark's podcast and I really want to know more about this and that we have a connection and I'll be happy to chat with you more.
Speaker 1:So LinkedIn is a great way to connect with you, anita, are there any other websites or ways that our listeners can connect with you?
Speaker 2:Let's keep it with LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:LinkedIn. It is All right, Anita. It's been a wonderful episode. Thank you so much for being our guest and thank you, listeners, for listening to us. This brings an end to another episode of the Agile Within. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Agile Within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the Agile Within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the Agile Within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues Until next time. This has been your host, Mark Metz.