Run Away From Conflict or Meet the Moment? with Lakshmi Ramaseshan

Strap in for a riveting exploration of the unspoken tensions that ripple through Agile teams, as I, Mark Metze, converse with our esteemed guest Lakshmi Ramaseshan. We're peeling back the layers of conflict avoidance, a topic many shy away from, yet one that seeps into the crevices of teamwork, threatening to undermine our collective efforts. Lakshmi doesn't just share her experiences; she dives into the deep end, revealing her personal transformation in the realm of conflict resolution. A masterclass in self-awareness and taking ownership as a leader awaits, with tangible strategies for building trust and fostering an environment where honest, productive dialogue can flourish.

Then, prepare to be both challenged and inspired as we navigate the tricky terrain of values and systemic change within the corporate sphere. Through the compelling tale of Joe, a leader caught in the crosshairs of team dynamics and personal ethics, we'll dissect how values are put to the test when culture and results clash. This isn't just about the rigors of management; it's an intimate look at the inner resolve needed to champion change and remain true to one's purpose. Discover the fine line between capitulation and embracing challenges head-on, and how this balance can galvanize teams to new heights of performance while preserving the heart of empathetic leadership.

Connect with Lakshmi on LinkedIn and X:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lakshmiramaseshan/
https://x.com/LakshmiRamases2

Join HitRefresh on the 1st and 3rd Wednesday at 12 PM ET:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/midweek-hitrefresh/

Some of Lakshmi's favorite trails in Lake Forest, CA:
Whiting Ranch Wilderness Trail, Portola pkwy
https://g.co/kgs/SYk89tC
https://g.co/kgs/ckeqHTz
https://g.co/kgs/CyKMJNi

Red Rock Canyon Park Trail
https://g.co/kgs/QFYHk5J
https://g.co/kgs/SLsCa2T
https://g.co/kgs/wJtae1c

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Chapters

• 0:06 Navigating Conflict in Leadership Coaching
• 16:21 Navigating Values and System Change

Transcript

Mark: 0:06

Welcome to the Agile Within. I am your host, mark Metz. My mission for this podcast is to provide Agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections. My guests and I will share real-life stories from our Agile journeys, triumphs, blunders and everything in between, as well as the lessons that we have learned. So get pumped, get rocking. The Agile Within starts now. Welcome back everybody to the Agile Within. This is your host, mark Metz. Our guest today is Lakshmi Ramaseshan Lakshmi. Welcome to the podcast.

Lakshmi: 0:48

Thank you, mark, excited to be here.

Mark: 0:50

Had you on the list for a while now. So glad to have you as a guest. Lakshmi comes from Lake Forest, California. I understand that's near Los Angeles. So, Lakshmi, if I were to come to Lake Forest for a day, what's?

Lakshmi: 1:08

one thing that you would say I absolutely love. I would say there's a lot of hidden trails in Lake Forest, so I'd say, definitely take a couple of hours and get on a trail. It's the most beautiful way to enjoy this area.

Mark: 1:22

So hiking trails, biking trails, all the above.

Lakshmi: 1:26

Hiking trails, mostly hiking trails, but yeah, you can get your bike there too, like mountain bike.

Mark: 1:31

And the climate is just about perfect, from what I understand, not too hot, not too cold it is perfect.

Lakshmi: 1:38

It is totally blissful.

Mark: 1:40

Well, if you have some specific trails that you have in mind, you can share those with me and I'll put them in the show notes for any of our listeners that might be in the area and want to have some helpful hints. I'll be sure and add those.

Lakshmi: 1:52

I do have a couple of favorites.

Mark: 1:53

Great, awesome, well, for today's episode, our title is Run Away from Conflict or Meet the Moment. So why do people run from conflict? What are some of the reasons, lakshmi?

Lakshmi: 2:07

I'd say it's hard. It feels uncomfortable and I think most people don't have the skills or the experience to deal with it. Well, I know. Those are just definitely some of the reasons I run away from conflict.

Mark: 2:24

A lot of times we shy away from things just because we don't have knowledge of them and they're foreign to us. So I understand you've got a real life story about conflict. That was somewhat defining for you, so why don't you set the stage for us? Put us in the middle of it, let us understand where you were and let's unpack it and see where it goes.

Lakshmi: 2:43

To be brutally honest, I'm not an expert on this. I think I struggle just like everyone else in managing conflict, so I'm hoping my story will inspire people to really get out of their comfort zone and try something new the next time they're in a conflict situation. Going back to a couple months ago, I had a chance to unpack how a leader in our organization was experiencing conflict, so I got to witness this firsthand and that's the story I'll be sharing today. This leader was running into conflict with his product leader, having issues, really setting the stage with the product leader bringing the right information to the team for his team to be successful. So some of the things we dove into there was questioning and understanding, getting curious about what was the role that this leader thought he played while navigating conflict. What was he experiencing in that conflict situation? Conflict what was he experiencing in that conflict situation and also what's the courage that he had in him to do the right thing.

Lakshmi: 3:51

That's really how we unfolded the whole conversation. It was really enlightening for me because I realized this is exactly where I was a couple of years ago and, as I said, I struggled with this myself. But over the last couple of years, the one thing that I've realized is, as a leader, it's really important to center yourself and take the responsibility to understand your role in conflict. While I'm not an expert at it today, I know that it makes me think about what I value, and it makes me think about what do I really need to do in this moment. Am I ready to meet the moment, or who do I need to partner with to get there?

Mark: 4:34

Why did this leader seek you out specifically for coaching through this situation?

Lakshmi: 4:41

It's a great question. Over the last couple of years I have developed a good rapport with this leader. He was really curious to see what my perspective was and really needed another pair of eyes and ears to hear his situation and partner with him and guide him.

Mark: 4:58

So you say you developed a good rapport. It took work and it took time to develop that rapport. It's not just something that you innately had some connection with this other leader. I assume it was over time you built this relationship together so that there was a level of trust.

Lakshmi: 5:14

Yeah, absolutely, and that's such a great point to reflect on, because if you're partnering with anybody, or coaching or guiding anyone, that is really the foundation of where you start. You need to build that trust and make sure that they know why you're in this discussion, what your intent is and the fact that you're really here to help them succeed. That needs to be really clear in any sort of coaching, conversation or partnership. Then, at later points in time, when you are in a situation where you're challenging them, they know that you're coming from the place right. So the key. So thanks for bringing that up, because that was the basis and the foundation for even having this conversation in the first place.

Mark: 6:02

I'm intrigued for you to start telling the story about how things went. So you had this leader come to you, they had this conflict that they were trying to navigate and they approached you to help with that. What next? Yeah?

Lakshmi: 6:14

Yeah, I think where I started was really getting curious about why this conflict was happening in the first place. Right, and I think what I've learned is, even though I had some of the information, I had to sort of ask for the details to really make sure I wasn't missing anything. So getting curious about what's really behind this conflict, what has happened, what has transpired? Do the people in conflict hold the same set of values? What are their experiences? Why is this conflict happening in the first place? That's kind of where we started and, as we were unpacking what this leader was experiencing, the three things that we really dove into is spending some time understanding the leader's role in conflict. The second was understanding how he thought he was working with the system and whether he was comfortable pushing the system for change. And the third was did he actually even understand why it was his role to be really taking the lead on how to navigate the conflict? So those were sort of the three things we dove into as we unpacked the conversation.

Mark: 7:27

Is that how you generally start most, if not all, coaching conversations about getting curious and finding out about values?

Lakshmi: 7:35

Yeah, that is most often. I think sometimes when we're rushing conversations, we forget to do that. But I would say any coaching conversation starts with that curiosity, because I can make up the stories in my head and make the assumptions up, but that may not be what the other person's experiencing. So it's always good to start with what is happening. Tell me what you're experiencing, give me the entire context so we can really unpack this together.

Mark: 8:06

Is it possible to be too curious, and if you don't know where I'm headed with this, I can help you out a little bit.

Lakshmi: 8:13

Yeah, I want to learn more.

Mark: 8:15

I'm thinking of myself and thinking about my default actions, and I get this from my dad. This DNA comes straight to me and we always laugh because whenever we took a trip or did anything and my dad always wanted to know what happened, he would ask the second question before I had a chance to answer the first question. He was just so excited to learn what was going on. So I find myself having to bridle the questions coming on because I get so excited and so enthralled in hearing what's going on and I have to settle myself down to just let the information come and let the person speak.

Mark: 8:53

It doesn't have to be me always pull, pull, pull. The other person can push the information to me.

Lakshmi: 8:59

That's such a great point. I think until you stated that, I didn't realize what being too curious actually meant. But that's such a great point Because when you're having a conversation, if you ask a question, you want to give the other person time to respond to the question before you ask the next question. And it's really not about making sure all the questions that you have in your head are answered. It's more that have they had the space to share what their experience is right, Because at the end of the day, you're listening to understand, not listening to respond or to take the conversation in a place you want to. That's why it's sort of a two-way street, right? So you have to pay attention to where the conversation is and where you want to take it and who is driving the conversation and who needs to.

Mark: 9:51

So that's the challenging part to me, is it's well-intentioned. Who's driving? Are you driving the conversation? Because you may go in a different direction than the person you're trying to coach and really wants to go.

Lakshmi: 10:03

As a coach, you want the coachee, the person you're guiding, drive the conversation, because you're really here to support them.

Mark: 10:12

All right. So your first point was understanding your role in conflict. How did this develop? How did this come about in this conversation you had with this leader?

Lakshmi: 10:22

Yeah. So, as we continue to unpack what this leader was experiencing, one of the things we dove into is did he understand his role in conflict in the first place With what he was experiencing? What did that tell him about his values, for example, if he was feeling uncomfortable or torn about doing the right thing, that means his values were telling him that something was not right. If his values were not speaking to him, then there wouldn't be conflict in the first place. It was really important for me to unpack that with him and make sure he understood what his role was in this conflict situation, because otherwise he wouldn't know what the right thing to do would be to address the conflict. Was he ready to do that right thing or not? So that's really kind of where we started.

Lakshmi: 11:15

One thing that Joe wanted and still wants is he wants to make sure his team is successful and supported and has all the right information from this product leader. That was where Joe was struggling, because, while the product leader was not giving him the information that was needed to support the team, it was important for him to really raise that as an issue, because otherwise the underlying message that he was sending to the product leader is nothing needs to change. This is kind of where we started is, as you're experiencing this as a leader, and we all face conflict in different situations. What does that conflict situation really tell you about how you see this and what you want to happen?

Mark: 12:03

When it started out. Was there any denying of Joe's role in the conflict? Was it this product leader can't keep their mouth shut or they just don't ever come prepared, and I just don't know how to relate to that. I don't know how to communicate to this person that they need to pull the information for the team together because we're wasting a lot of time and it's their problem. They need to be the ones to change.

Lakshmi: 12:27

That's a really good question and it makes me reflect a little bit about how empathetic this leader is. The reason I say that is there was no frustration from his perspective towards the product leader. The frustration was more related to the impact on the team. Any point, this leader didn't go and point any fingers to the product leader and say well, I don't understand why this product leader is not giving me the information. It was more from a place of curiosity of I want to make sure my team is supported and I want to make sure my team is successful. What I'm seeing is the product leader is not giving us this information, and here's where we're struggling and I'm not sure. What I'm seeing is the product leader is not giving us this information, and here is where we're struggling and I'm not sure what I need to do about it. So I really appreciated the angle that this leader came from, because it wasn't that he was accusing anybody, but he was almost questioning the situation he was in.

Mark: 13:26

So it wasn't emotionally charged, it was more matter of fact.

Lakshmi: 13:31

More matter of fact, yeah, which is why I think it was easier for us to unpack the conversation, because if it was emotionally charged, I don't know. I'm anticipating that we may not have gotten so far in one conversation. We may have had to come back to it in multiple conversations. Gotcha.

Mark: 13:50

Okay, so this product leader comes to you. They're very matter-of-factly giving you this situation that the team isn't getting the information that they need from this product leader and Joe is not sure what to do. He's frustrated with the situation, but not at anyone in particular. Okay, what's the next step?

Lakshmi: 14:12

So the next thing we looked at is now that I had a better understanding of Joe's role in the conflict and Joe was starting to look at his role in a different way in the situation. The next thing we looked at is what would it take for Joe to push the system for change? What I mean by that is in any conflict situation we have two choices surrender and do nothing, or lean in and push for the right behavior. Whatever you think that right behavior is. If you believe that pushing the system for change will lead you to the outcome, then that's a place that you can start and hopefully that will inspire you to do the right thing. Now I've learned that that's not easy, because if you're doing this for the first time and you're not skilled at navigating conflict which I think a lot of us are not then it's almost something that you have to talk to yourself and say well, I want to do this because it's important for my team, and that gives you almost that courage to do that.

Lakshmi: 15:22

But when you push the system for change, it usually pushes back. It's not like everyone else is going to be like oh yeah, great idea, let's go do that Right, because then there wouldn't be conflict in the first place. That's the part where I feel like you really need the courage to do that, because that's how change happens in organizations it takes one person to stand up to do the right thing, and then that one action encourages everyone else to do the right thing as well. So if Joe, as the leader in this situation, has the courage to push the system for change, the message that he's sending the rest of his team that he supports, is that I want a higher standard of excellence, I have the courage to stand up and I expect that you're going to do the same. But that means now the system starts to operate at a higher level of standard that doesn't exist today. But that's not easy. That's hard to do.

Mark: 16:19

That is hard to do. So the language that you use about changing the system I'm assuming that's intentional when you use those words to talk to the coachee.

Lakshmi: 16:31

Yeah, it's intentional because everything is a system in my mind. Our interactions with each other is happening in the context of a system. What's allowed and not allowed is defined by the system around us and the system guides our behaviors, not the other way around. And that's why it's challenging, because when the system pushes back, you think that you should just respond and surrender to the system. But you have to almost push back to guide the system in a way to grow for the future. With respect to this conversation, joe is constrained by the system the way it works today. Product leader is working with his team in a certain way. His team is responding to what's happening in a certain way. So if Joe wants anything to change, he has to be the one starting to change it and then there's a ripple effect through the whole system. That's kind of how I see it.

Mark: 17:33

So one quick departure before we come back to this story. Have you ever had anyone choose to surrender instead of leaning?

Lakshmi: 17:42

Oh yes, it happens all the time.

Mark: 17:45

And what does that look like?

Lakshmi: 17:47

What does that look like? I would say it just delays the problem. It doesn't go away because, honestly, not all of us have the courage to do the right thing right and sometimes in high-stakes situations you may need to just surrender because maybe the time to address that is not now. So sometimes you do need to surrender. It doesn't mean the problem goes away. Sometimes it only gets worse. And then you have the courage to stand up and say, well, now it's actually getting worse, I need to do something about it. And then somehow you find the courage to say the right thing. I would say it just leads to delaying the problem instead of addressing it right now.

Mark: 18:32

I would venture to say that's one of the most difficult parts of coaching is to resist trying to fix the problem for the coachee, right? If they're not ready to face up to the challenge, then they're not ready to face up to the challenge. It's not your job to come in and say, well, you should have you tried. Are you sure you can't?

Lakshmi: 18:53

Yeah, you almost have to help them understand the impact of their actions and then let them make the choice of when is the right time to do it.

Mark: 19:03

Okay, back to our story at hand. You asked me if he was ready to push the system for change, and you talked about having courage to do the right thing, so it sounds like Joe was open to that. On challenging the team to really do what they knew was right. All right, so what's next?

Lakshmi: 19:23

Let's see. At this point Joe was starting to understand his role in the situation and what he needed to do, and while he did that, I think one of the things that really made him more clear about what his next steps are is the fact that he could use his value as a signal to really reconfirm if that's what he wanted to do. Because in every situation, as I mentioned before, when your values are stepped on, you know that something needs to shift. Until that point, everything's fine, you can be easygoing, every situation's great, it's fluid. But the minute someone steps on your values, then that almost is a signal that something needs to change. So at this point the leader was starting to see that, okay, I understand my role, I feel like my values are stepped on, I want my team to succeed. So let me really get centered on the why. Why am I doing this in the first place? I feel like I know the right thing to do, but let me just kind of re-center myself. So that's kind of where we tapped into the third part of this conversation, which was getting clear on the why. This is where I felt this was the aha moment in the conversation, when Joe was starting to see that if he didn't do something then the situation would not change.

Lakshmi: 20:49

We unpack something regarding what actually enables healthy cultures in teams and organizations and if he did the right thing and if he had the courage to stand up.

Lakshmi: 21:03

It does not take away that he's an empathetic leader, because I think that was one of the things he was struggling with. He's very kind and he was not able to figure out how he could continue to be kind while standing up for the right thing. So we talked about how behaviors end up driving culture. The system guides our behavior, but then behaviors drive the culture on teams and organizations and our culture drives results. If you talk to any leader, they want high performance, but at the end you get what you're willing to tolerate. So if you tolerate bad behavior, then it actually erodes the culture on the team and in the organization. So I think this was the turning point where, the minute he realized impact of not doing the right thing and what that would be, he almost got this courage to say, okay, I can't be the enabler of behavior that we don't want in our organization. I need to stand up and do the right thing.

Mark: 22:12

How was Joe able to identify the value that was stepped on? We all have values, but we don't always have a documented list and have them up on a wall for us to view every day and say, aha, number three, the third value that I have value everyone's opinion. That was what was betrayed by the team. How did you, how were you able to tease that out?

Lakshmi: 22:39

That's a great question. I'm going back to our conversation. It was in the beginning of our conversation when we unpacked what he was experiencing and why this was bothersome in the first place. At that point, joe said well, one of the things that gives me pride is helping my team be successful. I feel like in this situation, I'm not getting what I need from this product leader and my team is not able to be successful.

Lakshmi: 23:06

During that time, joe hadn't really come to the point of I need to push back or change or do something different. What Joe started to do was do the work for the team, because the product leader was not supporting him and, as a result, he was actually not able to do other things that he was supposed to be doing to support the team, because this was taking up his time. And he said well, I feel like I'm letting my team down, and one of the things that is really important to me is continuing to help my team succeed. So this is where he felt like, well, this situation is stepping on the thing that's most important to me, which is building an environment where my team can thrive, and that's where he felt like he came back to every time and asked him well, what does this mean for you and why is this important to you? And that's really where we unpack that. It's a great question. Thank you for helping me reflect that.

Mark: 24:09

All right. So we talked about. You, helped Joe understand his role in the conflict, then you talked to him about pushing the system for change, seeing whether we wanted to surrender or whether we wanted to lean in, and then you got clear on the why. So what was the result? Tell us the suspenseful ending of the story here.

Lakshmi: 24:28

I think the suspenseful ending that's a great way of saying it was the realization that we are not masters at this.

Lakshmi: 24:37

This is hard and every situation is going to be different.

Lakshmi: 24:42

But when we avoid those difficult conversations we just actually end up trading that short-term discomfort that we feel for long-term dysfunction.

Lakshmi: 24:54

So instead, if we just can get to the point where we have the courage to have dialogue, it helps us share our own perspective with the other person and understand their perspective, because at the end of the day, we can only be successful when we create win-win situations. So in this situation, if Joe is able to be candid about the fact that I am not getting what I need from you, if you're the product leader, then the product leader can see how important this is for Joe and figure out what's in his way and get Joe the support he needs so his team can thrive. If we're not able to have that dialogue, it's really hard to move forward because otherwise we're constantly going to be in situations that we feel uncomfortable and not know how to handle it. Everything starts with the dialogue, because we all have different perspectives coming into situations and we need to honor that, but we need to also stand up for what we believe is right, because otherwise nothing will change.

Mark: 26:03

What do you do when two parties have different values?

Lakshmi: 26:06

That's a really good point. I have run into that a few times. I feel like first talking through it and understanding that they are different values and then talking about the impact of what that means to the system. Because if we come back to what do we want to happen as far as the outcomes we want, then it's easier for us to come back to what are the values we need in the system to be exhibited for us to get to those outcomes, and then I'm hoping that will inspire people to realign with those values, even though they may not be your values in the first place.

Lakshmi: 26:47

A good example would be let's say I'm inherently a detail-oriented person and let's say you're not. If we believe that we need to build the right amount of clarity for our team that we're working together with to succeed, then what does it look like for us to build that clarity? There may be an answer somewhere in the middle, and it doesn't have to be a 20-page document, but maybe there is a way that you can tell the story that will honor your values and mine and help the team succeed. So it's about finding those win-win situations. But that's only possible when you talk through it, because you don't know where the misalignment is until you talk about how you're seeing the situation Many times.

Mark: 27:33

in order to get to a win-win situation, negotiation comes into play.

Lakshmi: 27:41

Yeah.

Mark: 27:41

Right.

Lakshmi: 27:42

Absolutely.

Mark: 27:43

So you have to be willing to negotiate and not have your way.

Lakshmi: 27:49

Yes, very true. It's not about winning, it's about moving forward together.

Mark: 27:55

Great. All right, lakshmi, we're coming to an end. How about you give a summary to us of this discussion with this mysterious Joe? And we know you've anonymized his name so that you could protect him. But what did you learn, and what did Joe learn from navigating this conflict?

Lakshmi: 28:17

I would say I think I relearned how uncomfortable it is and how important it is for every one of us to get more skilled navigating conflict, because it happens all the time Our professional life and even in our personal lives. I think in a professional setting, when you are in those situations, when you start to understand your role in conflict, you can just take one step and lean in towards what you want to happen. Then it's easier for you to make that happen, easier for you to push that system for change. The quote that comes to mind is from Albert Einstein. It says he says in the midst of difficulty lies opportunity. He says in the midst of difficulty lies opportunity. So when you're in that conflict situation, how do you find the opportunity for you to have the courage to be that leader that you're here to do? And really, instead of just running away from coach we all do, how do we just meet the moment and do it now?

Mark: 29:23

Don't you think there's some higher purpose that you're looking to fulfill, Because it can be a me versus them kind of thing I know better because I've got 50 years of experience or 30 years of experience or whatever and it's really taking a step up and saying what's the right thing to do the right thing to do?

Lakshmi: 29:48

No, absolutely, Because I believe that leadership is. It's a privilege to lead people and it's a privilege to help teams succeed. You're in that position for a reason, so it is important more than I mean it's important for anyone to navigate conflict, but I'd say for leaders, it's a requirement. You have to do it. It isn't comfortable, but it just gets easier as you start to do it more.

Mark: 30:13

And it is a language that it's a skill that you need to learn, because that's the only way you can be a successful leader that creates the right environment for your teams to thrive successful leader that creates the right environment for your teams to thrive Well, thank you so much for being a guest, coming on here and sharing this story with us, as well as sharing your learnings and what you learned along the way. This has been absolutely fantastic, lakshmi. So if our listeners out there, I'm sure many of them will want to get in touch with you, whether it just be to touch base with you or ask you more. What's the best way for them to do that?

Lakshmi: 30:46

You can reach me on LinkedIn, on Twitter and so you know, message me on direct, message me and definitely send me a connection request. Would love to hear from you to know how this impacted you and what you learned and what ideas you have that I could learn from. If you're following me on LinkedIn, I'm also a steward for a well-being community that I recently started to be a part of and lead. That is called Hit Refresh, and we meet every first and third Wednesday, so we'd love to join you in that community as we work together to build a more sustainable world.

Mark: 31:26

Well, this has been a great episode. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us as a guest, lakshmi, and for those listeners out there going to wish you farewell, we'll see everybody next time. Thanks so much, y'all. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Agile Within. If you haven't already, please join our LinkedIn page to stay in touch. Just search for the Agile Within and please spread the word with your friends and colleagues Until next time. This has been your host, mark Metz.