The Agile Within
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The Agile Within
Scrum Lake Episode 3: What can the lake do for you with Co-creators Ryan Brook and John Albrecht
Worldwide appeal!
The final episode in this 3 part series on the popular Scrum Lake. Co-creators Ryan and John discuss the appeal and impact of Scrum Lake on so many. It can be dark and murky at the bottom of the lake. But should I be afraid? Maybe. Maybe not. Others are there to see you through it. Oh ... and these guys put me to the test with a challenging example from the workshop. Do I pass it? Come find out.
If you've not heard of Scrum Lake until now, you'll want to catch this series that helps you really grasp Scrum in a unique way. If you've struggled with its roles, process, and yes values (there are 5 if you didn't know), then these guys will help you understand them more clearly. So come along on this voyage to grasp the deeper meaning of the most popular Agile framework in the world!
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I mean, even though these five collectively are specific to scrum, they aren't purely applied to justice scrum framework. I mean, I think interesting thing about is just some of them, uh, if that's a lot of them, people do model unconsciously just because of who they are, you know, we've never met face to face, but I respect you as a, as a practitioner. That's, that's the best value I believe I have. But the thing with scrum is that these values are the basis of successful interactions because all five of them, when they come together and, you know, bring those pellets to life and then allow that trust to build it's about the collection of values, rather than just having one or two. Um, and it's, it's fascinating how people can kind of move towards you kind of want to, I start with teams wanting to get them to a conscious point of how they live their values with a goal long-term of these values becoming unconscious. I think in order to move people together with values, it needs to be a conscious effort. I don't think, uh, improving values can be an unconscious thing. I think you have to actively improve.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast that challenges you from the inside and discover the agile within. And now here's your host, Greg Miller. Welcome back to episode three of scrum Lake. Continuing with us is, are the founders of scrum like John Albrecht, Ryan Brooke. Welcome back guys. Thanks. Thanks. Hey Greg, thanks for having me back. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for joining us. So if you've been, if you've been following us along for the first two episodes, you know, uh, we've been traveling along with John and Ryan on their scrum Lake, uh, started off with, uh, who they are, the whole purpose of it, where it came from second episode, we dove in to a little bit more around the structure. And the third episode here, we'll wrap it up with impacts and we'll have some discussions around the Lake, um, mainly the values
Speaker 3:And, uh, why those are so big, why those are so important, why you need to care about the values. Uh, the process is one thing, but the values and principles, you know, the agile manifesto are so much important as well. So, um, I hope you're getting a lot of value out of this as much as I am. So let's, uh, kick it off John and Ryan and, um, let's dive into the scrum values here. Go a little bit deeper into the Lake. So yeah,
Speaker 1:The values are the bedrock for us on the John there. The thing that, that scrum Lake is, is, is built on an, a successful scrum is built on, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. It's the thing that you, you can't really see, it's the thing that's right at the bottom. And it's the thing that when you're doing a surface level scrum, that's what we took all the way to the top. You're not even aware of, and you're just following a process, but the only reason scrum works is the bedrock of the Lake. Um, and those values, um, it's absolutely the key
Speaker 1:Values to so human. Like you say that the thing beneath the surface, you can follow a process, but actually because scrum is fundamentally all about people and how people interact without, without that basis of how those interactions should go, or at least a guide, I wouldn't say the basis. Um, it's really hard to have successful interactions and kind of deliver or use scrum in a, in a really successful way. I think that's what it feels like to me when I work with teams.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if you're, if I'm, if I'm in a waterfall environment and like, and I'm just, I'm being asked to switch over to scrum and I got this new process and okay. I follow the process. Why do I, yeah. Why do I care about, um, values? So we have commitment, courage, focus, openness, and respect. Is that the bedrock of scrum? Um, why is that important to me? Why do I care about, um, commitment for example is, um, I don't need, I'm just following a process. I'm getting the work done.
Speaker 4:You don't care. You, you, you, you come from a waterfall process, you literally don't care about these values at all. Um, and that place, the top of our Lake where you've got turbulent, um, events, or you've, you're, you're digging yourself into a hole because you're just following a process. Um, it's not, it's, it doesn't have that human aspect and you don't even have the awareness really, actually you, maybe you do. That's a bit unfair. Um, different folks have different things and they know different, they know different ways of working and someone from a more traditional background probably has a real good understanding of how teams work and probably live those values. But, um, if you were just looking at it from a process, point of view, then yeah, it doesn't really enter your mind. It's just the process. It's about following those steps. It's not human. Um, I think the challenge comes on how you moved that position. How, how does someone discover their own values and discover the vows of scrum and, and how the pillars of empiricism come to life through living those values and how do you go on that journey? I think that's the interesting thing because it's, I don't think there's a clear journey. It's not something that's easily traveled.
Speaker 1:I think the values as well are eight because they're not these. I mean, even those, these five collectively are specific to scrum. They aren't purely applied to just scrum framework. I mean, I think interesting thing about value is just some of them. In fact, a lot of them, people do model and consciously just because of who they are, you know, we've never met face to face, but I respect you as a, as a practitioner. That's, that's the best value I believe I have.
Speaker 3:But the thing
Speaker 1:With scrum is that these values are the basis of successful interactions because all five of them, when they come together and bring those pillars to life and then allow that trust to build is about the collection of values, rather than just having one or two. Um, and it's, it's fascinating how people can kind of move towards you kind of want to, I start with teams wanting to get them to a conscious point of how they live their values with a goal long-term of these values becoming unconscious. I think in order to move people together with values, it needs to be a conscious effort. I don't think, uh, improving values can be an unconscious thing. I think you have to actively improve them.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. So I, I'm going to try to take a, uh, uh, take a, a waterfall mindset here. I'm like, okay, I hear all this. Right. I hear you guys saying this. Okay. I bought into the process. Right. Um, I'm thinking about, you know, I've heard this scrum like thing, uh, it sounds interesting I'm into scrum, but, um, we're, we're delivering, you know, I'm delivering the product, I'm delivering the project, right. Project mine. I'm delivering the work. Uh, we're just doing, we're just following scrum. Okay. Now we're just doing a standup and I'm just doing, um, you know, you're asking me to do a retro and, and think about inspection, but, uh, you know, I'm still delivering work. It's just the process. Why do I, why do I need to, um, be open and transparent with, uh, with my teammates? I'm just, um, you know, I'm working in my silo, I'm doing my work and my handed off to a QA. Um, so if I come to scrum, like when am I going to experience, you know, why do I, you know, what are you going to try to teach me about these values and transparency? And adoptation, what can I, what can I look forward to? Why do I care?
Speaker 1:The first thing I'm going to address is that you said, what are we going to you? And the answer is very little. We're not going to teach you. I don't think values can be taught in a didactic one way single uni directional flow. What you can expect from scrum Lake is a collaborative exploration of what these values mean to people. Would that be fair?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. It's not this isn't about teaching. I think it is, but it's, it is it isn't it isn't, it's like self-teaching itself. Discovery values are embodied people, embody values, people live values, people have their own values. Um, you say less and less carry on with this, uh, with this scenario where you're, you're you say that you're just doing the process. It's one process is mechanical. We do the steps. Um, but you will have values. You will. I hear commitment in that character. You are committed to achieving those things. So that is strong for you, but by exploring those values with other people, by breaking down what commitment means for you and what it doesn't mean for you. And I sense coverage in there as well, what courage means for you and also focus. Um, and then what that means for other people around you, um, you kind of, that comes an overlap and then you start to discover, or maybe there's a bit more to it. There's a bit more to just the nose things. Um, and or what does openness mean? But yeah, I, I, it's not taught and that's the challenge. Um, I don't know, in previous, in the previous podcast, we, we talked about teaching and learning scrum going on courses and doing all this reading. It's all awesome. It's all really, really cool. And it really, really does help. Um, but it's that whole sort of dichotomy, if you're going on the number of day training and then, and then you've, you've a scrum master. You can do it sort of bit is a bit deeper than that. It's kind of it's by doing it, it's it, it's almost empirical it's knowledge and experience and it builds with time. Um, but yeah, what, what you'd expect from scrum Lake is just uncovering what your values are, but a little bit, and the values of the people around you and what that means for you. Um, and scenarios of when those, those values have come to the surface.
Speaker 1:I think what's powerful is that values can easily be seen as just an individual thing, but actually what scrum equal do, like you said, Greg, that, you know, you might come to the, like, why do I care? What, you know, why do I care about command? Why do I care about courage? It's the I in that sentence, that potentially is the issue with the values actually, it's we, the powerful thing about values and scrum is that they are lived by the team. Yes, you, you lived them individually as well, but I like to think of them as team respect, team openness team focus, because it gets you thinking outside of your shell and thinking as a, as a protective, as a, as a collective team. And when you move through and you embody those values collectively, I think that's when they really start to make a difference. If one person is amazing, all these five values, it doesn't mean squat. If the other five people then it's about baselining together.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for playing along there. So yeah, I'll get out. I'll get out of my, I don't, I like to stay in a little bit longer. When you, in your, in your scenario, you said, why do I care about the values? And I pointed out, well, I detect that you've got commitment, courage, focus, looking at the Lake and just looking at our metaphors from hearing that scenario. Why do I care about values? I don't sense, openness. I sense. I detect closed newness to things and that's okay. So there's some reservation to values. There's some reservation to knowing that. And I also detect kind of, uh, it's like, it's almost from, yeah, it's, it's almost contempt over curiosity, so you're not open, but there's a contempt. So there's a lack of respect to it. Like I don't, I don't respect what you're doing. Yeah. That's not something that's not my, that's not my bag. So in CC for it's, it's the O at the end, which your, your, in your words, you're saying that you're, um, you're not sort of, you're not really open to this and you don't really respect it, which is why you can't, I'm just having you speak. That's why you can't teach values because you're not, you're not up for that in your current mindset. Your mental model currently is it's about the process. It's about following the steps and it's, it's those three values. The other two, I don't necessarily see eye to eye with. Um, and I can't teach you that you have to, you maybe, maybe you're okay as you are, you, you, you don't need that, but I'm offering to, um, be here to sort of explore if you want to explore. Uh, and we can explore this together with a group of scrum masters, but if you don't want to, that's fine as well. Uh, I'm not here to teach you and sort of force you to be open and force you to be respect respectful, because that, that's not me being open to how you are, and that's not be me being respectful of you in your position as you are, which I think is why it's very tricky to teach values. It's impossible as details.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm going to I'll tackle that very final thing about impossible to teach, because teaching doesn't always have to be direct. I think there's a really great learning theory by a guy called Lev Vygotsky. Uh, and it's about zones of proximal development. And if you want someone to, to grow in something, and if you want them to improve, you sit them next to someone, or you sit them in a, in an area next to someone, um, who, who models that, that value or not has that knowledge. So there's both a passive gain and also an active gain when you engage with that person. So for example, if John had amazing respect, uh, and I didn't, and let's say a scrum master said, you know what, why don't you guys work together? You start to pick up, you, you mirror a behavior. It's really common. I've been working with John now for eight months, and I never used the word folks before, but I mirror language, I mirror actions. Um, because when you spend time with people, you do pick up values and through working together, I think it's just a great way that these things evolve. That's what scrum does over the period of sessions. We have the same people coming back time and time again, I start to feel like I could work with people. I understand their values. And that's what I love.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a, that's what keeps me coming back. I really, um, I really enjoyed the discussion. So if someone's listening and they've never been to scrum Lake before, uh, to this, this, this, uh, episode here and, uh, what can they, uh, so they can expect to talk with people with wide variety of backgrounds from all over the world. Right. And, uh, sharing different ideas. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Uh, so we've had people from as far as well as Australia, we've had people from the Nordics, a lot of people from the States, Europeans. Yeah. We should have really kept a map. John just tick people off when they attend, how long
Speaker 3:We haven't done it.
Speaker 4:Should we have them from South America yet, but we've definitely happy from the middle East as well. Um, and India. Um, so yeah, it's been a really global affair, but yeah, it's, uh, what you expect is to, to work with scrum masters, share stories, pick apart the scrum guide and break down things that you didn't think were really downable. So, such as the values, what does commitment mean to you? What does courage mean to you? What's it like what, what a Voda, what grows it, um, and just sort of hearing other people and sort of when those things, when they've used those things and when they didn't use those things and the effects that, that, that has had on the organizations and the teams and the people and themselves really, um, I, I think I, I liked that I liked to values. I values, I like deeper work. Um, and I it's, how do I split it? It's tricky to, it's tricky to do it because people, again, you can't force it, you've got to invite it. Um, and it's really difficult to explain on a podcast as well. Um, I think you just have to do it and explore it with some other people. Um,
Speaker 1:So in order to help that, one of the things that John and I do, I know we've spoken about metaphors in the past. We talk about, we talk about common languages in scrum a lot, but actually when we've got these people from all around the world, when we talk about story, sometimes stories with very specific examples, don't relate for cultural reasons, but actually some of the metaphors we use, like, like that flag, that, that commitment that we stamp into the, into the ground, we all look at it. We can see it, it's warm and it's so big that multiple people have to carry it. What we're doing there is everyone can relate to that example, but we might not be able to relate to very specifics of if people's circumstances. And that's why I love you. You, we can, we can get people on the same page quickly so that we can, we can talk, uh, talk deeply about some concepts. And it's, it's really cool. Okay. Commitment's an interesting one. Let's shall we can, can we talk about commitment? Yeah, let's do that. Sorry. Commitment. It's like a huge flag. It's a massive and that's and mine. Yeah. It's like a massive flag that you can hold on your own and you put it in the ground and it's almost like embodied thing. You put it in the ground as a team and you put your flag in it and that's what you're going to do. That's the goal. That's the, you're committing to the goal. You're committing to each other. Um, you're committing to learn. You're committing to be professional to self-organize. You're committing to a definition of that. You're committing to so many things, but you can't really commit on your own. You committing as a you're committing on your own as well, but you're committing as a, as a team, but for you what's commitment like for you, Greg, what for you? What's commitment. Like, yeah. So let me think here. What does commitment like for me in a metaphor? Yes. Commitment is like, Um, let me think here caught me off guard. What does commitment, Walgreens thinking just for, just for the listeners, look for out, have a thing while Greg's thinking, what is what's commitment liked for you? Let's give you a pause. Have a think. Yeah. I think with me, what is commitment like in a metaphor and Ryan beyond the flag, what's what's commitment like for you on the fly commitment is It's power. Commitment is power. It's a way of, it's a way of demonstration is a way of saying we, we should be respected. Um, and it's a way of saying, you know what? We make these commitments, we honor our commitments and therefore you can trust us. You can, you can expect things from us. And I think that's really important. Yeah. So if I would say commitment, I mean,
Speaker 3:Tell me if I'm off, but I'm thinking, so if I'm committed, I'm fully in a, it would be kind of like, um, maybe jumping off a diving board, maybe a high diving board, like a, you know, I'm jumping off a diving board into a pool. Maybe I'm a little nervous. I'm a little scared. Uh, but once I leave that diving board, there's no going back. Right. Um, I'm only, I'm only going one way. Hmm. So you're right. So for you commitment, it's like a diving board. You're a little scared, but you're only going one way and jump I'm jumping in. Yeah. Okay, cool. Okay. And I'm interested in listeners and you can, if you've, if you've got what your commitment is like, like Greg's, Greg's is like, it's a diving board and he's jumping off and he's a little scared. So write that word on a posting. What's the metaphor like, and then Greg, it feels like I'm just doing his one-on-one, but I, Greg, for commitment to be like, you're jumping off a diving board and you're a little scared. You'll need to be like what I will need to be.
Speaker 2:Uh,
Speaker 3:And again, if you're listening yeah. Have a think and write down what you think it is, but I'm going to ask you, I, and so for you commitments, like the power. Yeah. And for that commitment to be like the power you will need to be like, wow, I think I need to be, I think I need to believe in myself to be able to wield the power. I'm thinking of things like it's like a superhero, like okay. In, in Marvel films where they, I don't know if I can talk about that copyright reasons, but Hey, ho I'm sure. In a Marvel film, they always have that bit of self-doubt. They always have to think, am I wrong? Am I worthy to be, you know, which pet yes. Pick your favorite Marvel superhero. Am I worthy to wield? Thor's hammer does magical. I'm just crying. And uh, you know, am I worthy to carry it? And I think that's really important that you consider that, but equally go, you know what? I am committed. I have the power, I respect myself. Uh, and that is, that is how I will need to be, to wield his power, to, to demonstrate my commitment. What about for you, Greg? Because John asked, I liked that. I like that, that got me. That got me thinking. Yeah, because at first I was saying a lion, but a lion can't go into water. I don't think, but I'd have to have, it would have to have the courage of the lion, but I liked, I liked your metaphor, Ryan of a superhero. I think I would have to be. Yeah. Um, what, maybe if I'm going into water, maybe like Aquaman or something that I don't, you're not afraid of the water, I guess. Uh, I like, yeah.
Speaker 4:So I'm going to, I'm going to ask the same question. So for you, so if commitment for you for commitment to be like, um, that sort of you're diving in, um, off a diving board and you have it, uh, a kind of bit out you'd need to be like, what, Greg, what would you need to be like
Speaker 3:You
Speaker 4:Saying Aqua man? Or is it something else?
Speaker 3:Well, the, the, I like a superhero. I like, I liked, Ryan's a metaphor. They're like, like some type of superhero that I'll have to be like yes. To have the courage is kind of what I said. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay, cool. So again, again, if you've, if you've written that on a post-it note, what would you need to be like, have a, have a thing can write that down as well. Um, so we've got super heroes, we've got welding kind of Thor's hammer and there's that self doubt and we're getting through it and the courage and all of that jazz.
Speaker 1:Mike, can I add something to my, my, uh, what's need to be like John, I am a, I'm a superhero and I mentioned Marvel, but I think in order to feel powerful enough to wield my commitment, I need to be part of a team. Yeah. The superhero, they work in a team in Marvel, you know, they all have their strengths, they all have their weaknesses, but they commit to a common goal. And I think that's why I also need, I can't just be one strong guy. I need to be backed up or working with equally with a team.
Speaker 3:Good point. Yes. Yes. You don't want to be like Batman necessarily, right. Batman's a loner, right. It's the loner. Sure. I liked that too. Ryan, you would have to be like a team. Yes. You would have to be on the team.
Speaker 1:It's almost like we found this and we truly haven't for anyone.
Speaker 3:No, we haven't. I like Ryan's ideas. I do. It's yeah. As I think through it, yes, I would definitely have to be. Yeah. I think if I'm, if I'm committed, I'm standing on that diving board, it's pretty high up. Maybe I'm just thinking back like childhood. It's my first time. Uh, and uh, you know, there's a line of people behind me. I'm standing there and uh, once I jump, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm all the way in I'm committed, fully committed. I have to have courage, courage, like a lion, but I have to be like a superhero too. Cause I said, lions can't jump into water or they don't, they should cats. Don't like water. But um,
Speaker 1:Well the people in that queue behind you cheering you on Greg.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right? Yeah. Yep.
Speaker 4:Like how Ryan is not, he's not doing it alone. There's a, there's a team. So he's not on his own and it's that courage, but it's with a group of other people, which is playing with another question. So for that commitment to be really useful and for you to be like that day, that dying off the diving board. Um, and yeah, for not having that self doubt and worry. What support do you
Speaker 3:Yeah. From my team from ours or others from others, if, uh, if I'm, uh, if I go back to the D if I'm on a diamond board, uh, typically, uh, so I'm a, I'm a dad now. And um, if my son is out there, he's like, dad watch me and you know, watch me jump off the diving board. So I'm like, you know, you guys said earlier, I'm standing there watching his, mom's watching. Um, people are cheering you on, if it's your first time. Right. Like you said, so I, I would need support from others, other people. Um, definitely. Yes. Right. That's really interesting.
Speaker 1:You say, you mentioned it the first time. If you did that again, Greg, if you, if your son jumped off it for the second time, would he be more confident to be able to do that? Yes. Yeah. So he's got hope. So commitment evolves his, his ability to jump off the diving board changes over time. He may choose to make a higher commitment. Next time he may jump off the 10 instead of the five,
Speaker 3:Right? I think I'm spotting up Lincoln to in Paris have as well. Is there a transparency inspection and adaption commitments tangible link into empiricism because by doing it to gain knowledge and experience is growing and you're going through that OODA loop. So the commitment has a very strong link as to all of the values into that. Um, but yeah, if we'd done this with a load of people, we had like seven or eight people we could have explored this, we'd have explored it even in many more assets. Uh, and I think that's an explanation why you can't really teach. So you will be more committed. You can say, yes, you can teach Ryan. Yes. But it doesn't work like that. It's sort of, it's more, it's deeper. It's about humanity. Um, and then the other thing that I find interesting is sort of all of that commitment and not that diving board, what VOADs and sort of that superhero and being that, what of roads? That commitment, what are the things, what are the things that our vote commitment? What eats away at it? Yeah. Um, so if I'm committed to jumping into the diving board, what would erode at it? Um, maybe I've okay, I've done it. I've done it before, or there's other things I want to do now. Uh, maybe I'm, I'm less committed to jumping off the diving board because I've done it enough times. I've inspected. Like you said, I got more confidence and I want to move on to something else. Or I have other things, other things that I want to do, what a road, my commitment to jumping off the diving board. More often it gets, you know, it gets old after over time. Right. And you get, you get used to it, you get used to it, you have courage, you've done it, you know? Okay. I did that. Been there, done that, but I have other things I want to do now. So for, if I was riffing off
Speaker 1:Greg's idea, things that would erode my commitment where maybe if the water got, got really dirty, really murky, I didn't know what I was jumping into this. The situation has changed. So if, if, if the products became unstable or the market is unknown or the resourcing on the team had changed, um, that would make, that would erode my ability to commit. But I also, I like Greg's idea. You know, sometimes we get bored with things. Sometimes we need, what's the point in doing the same thing 10 times over, uh, you need to, you need to change. You need to have old friends who approved.
Speaker 4:I think another thing that varies that commitment off the back of those things is that teamwork as well. And when you're on your own, you are less able to commit to things which is weird because traditionally you'd think, I would think commit would, would be I've committed to doing this, but sort of using that metaphor, I'm less likely to commit to things when I'm on my own. If that makes sense, it's nice to have a team around me. It's nice to commit with other people. I can commit individually, but I can commit as a team. Um, but not having that team, having maybe a team of two smaller size or maybe two bigger size, I'm not going to commit to those things. So I think that the team size plays a part of this.
Speaker 3:Sure. Yeah. And this, so I just want to like, uh, what we're doing here for everybody listening. What we're doing here is this, this is the part that really draws me back to scrum. Like over and over again, I've been maybe three or four times, and this is the part where the questions that John asked and the conversation Ryan had in the connecting the commitment back to the empiricism, that really helps. It really helped me to be candid before this. I never really draw, draw a line between the values and back to inspection adaption and transparency. And this helps me with it. So, um, for anybody thinking about going to it, um, don't be afraid of this. It's really helpful. There's lots of people there. There's usually a dozen or so people there, they do breakout rooms and you go into it, you go wherever you want to write. It's, you know, it's not John and Ryan saying, we're going to commitment. Right. You guys vote on this. Right. That's all right.
Speaker 1:It's whatever you guys want to do when you attend. We are, we said it before we're we are active participants, uh, as well, you know, we have things to bring and we want to learn from you too. It's uh, it's enjoyable for us.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So anything else around that guys around that little, that was a good exercise. I liked that, um, a little bit, what folks can experience there.
Speaker 4:So yeah, we do. Yeah. We do a bit more around that and that we've other questions and these, I want to canvas and we have our metaphors and we have the links and with a group of like seven or eight people, we break them down. We put on post-its, we talk to those, we explore them, we summarize them, we move on, we explore other questions. We pose questions and have conversation with each other. And people even throw little photos and things onto the canvas. Um, and then off the back of that, that might cause something to come up for someone, for example, it might bring up, uh, the pillars, or it might bring up coverage that came up in here. It might bring up self-management and then we jumped to a different part of the Lake, um, and how the, how the Lake is structured. So we, we jumped where people want to go, but how the Lake is structured, we have that bedrock, which are those five values, CC four. And then cradled within that, we have scrum theory, um, which is founded on empiricism and lean thinking and employees engages in combines. So the words within the new scrum guide, which I love, um, so yeah, it's founded empiricism and deep thinking. And this is right in the heart of that, the sort of those, the sedimentary layers and employees over the incremental approach to optimize predicts, we can control the risk. It engages groups of people who have all the skills and experience do the work, or they acquire the skills. And then finally it combines those for formal events, for inspection and adaption within the containing events. So it's, that's the stuff at the top of the Lake, but that heart it's almost shaped like a heart, you know, like it is, it's kind of right in the middle and it's cradled by the values by living and embodying those values. Um, those three pillars come to life and that scrum theory is sort of it's alive. Um, and that you can see it going round and round in circles. Um, and then the trust builds. And then on the top of that, you've got everything that everyone else knows about scrub where it's just by faith, which we're not really talking about at this point. Right. Um, and this is, this is, this is, this is on LinkedIn that's last week or being agile, doing agile kind of, which is more important back in the day I might principal led or practice lead. And I was always Prince vice principal, that kind of thing. But I think it's not one or the other, the magical point is, is the embodiment of this stuff and living and being it and doing it as well. Um, it's the combination of the two and scrums magical ability because it models the two things in unison. It's just a slight shame that, that the stuff at the bottom of the Lake, the bedrock is so often ignored because it's, again, back to that point, it's not, it's not in a traditional way, or it's harder to teach in a traditional way. You have to do exercises. And it's something that takes time. It's something that grows and it's something you, you, you build on with time by working and working with teams. But we think that scrum Lake is a way of sort of exploring these concepts with other scrum masters from around the world. And that that's, that's the benefit that we we've seen. That's the benefit scrum masters have told us that they didn't realize they hadn't seen these values. They didn't think yeah. Workshops where scrum masters are saying, but I don't know. I really can't have the courage to talk to my product. And my product owner has, has a management sort of a authority over me. And I, I, yeah, it's not, it's not, that's, that's not what it is. It's just about following the process and it will, why couldn't you edit and how, what would need to happen? What would need to happen for you to, or for folks to have courage, to have that conversation and say what you think needs to be said, because that's where the true value of scrum comes when you've got the doing and the being in unison and the seabed of the Lake. And there's lots of green growing plants and it's clear water and it's glorious and yet delivering value. You're finding all these treasure chests and you've got a deep Lake and it's really, really nice and lovely, and you're doing good scrum. And it looks magical from the outside. Everyone's in a really amazing place, your technical practices of all their customers or happier delivering value, your team's all happy. And there's like a happy buzz and you can hear it when you're in, when, when you in your office, you can hear the buzz of the team and you can hear the buzz of the stakeholders and the stakeholder. Everyone's happy. It's just glorious. Um, but so many teams are so far away from that place. Um, and again, this is one of the reasons why we created a scrum to help, to help folks discover what they don't know, what they can't see or what they're not aware of, of like back to the story of the folk, your, your, your chap who had a traditional background. It's all about the process. He wasn't aware, he wasn't aware.
Speaker 1:Do you think it would be worth John? I know we talk about a scrum, like values being prescribed masters in a safe place for scrum masters to talk, Greg and John, do you think that it would be worth getting teams to explore the values together? So, you know, you take a team from an organization and run through scrambling. So developers, product owner, and scrum master. I see huge value in that as a potential.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Oh for sure. Totally. 100%. Yeah. Um, again, we talked before we started recording that, um, in my experience, and I think Ryan, you agreed with me, um, these, these, I don't even know that there it's been a while since I went through the, the PSM class, but, uh, they don't really talk much. Maybe they talk about empiricism. Yes, definitely. Empiricism inspection, transparency that patient, but the other values, I don't even know that they were in the scrum guide back then. Um, but for sure, I would love to take, I would love to take a team team I have now through just this part of it, uh, for sure.
Speaker 1:Josh, with Greg, I'm sure. John and I will be, would be happy to work with your team. Take riffing on that question. Then if a team was working on it as a self-contained team, would an external facilitator assist or actually, would it be better if the team dove and explored themselves? What do we think? I think
Speaker 4:It depends on the team. Like if I'm thinking of, of my team, if you're asking me about my current team, probably a little bit of facility, they would need a facilitator deck to guide them because they wouldn't know what to talk. And I think it depends on the maturity as a team. So yeah, my team is fairly new. I would say, I would say we need a facilitator that takes them through this. Um,
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So back to your earlier question, would it be valuable to take a team through the values? I agree. I think it is valuable, but again, it's back to that teaching and inviting it or not forcing it. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Working with clients, um, I've, I've, I've identified where we really nice to work with leadership, or it'd be really nice to work with, uh, product owners. We've really nice to work with teams on these values, but you don't just jump straight in. Um, yeah, I've done. I've done retrospective on values. I've done work on using scrum Lake on values. And I think if you go too fast, too deep, too soon, you're not as a mature. You're not mature is the wrong word, but it is as well. The team isn't open and your scenario commandments. Yeah. Coverage, maybe focus, maybe openness, not really respect, not ready. Um, so, but that's the beauty of that's the beauty of the Lake, um, because you come to scrum like, and then the group basically.vote where they want to go and a group won't start vote. If they're new, they won't a.vote, the values or the theory. Um, they won't, they won't do it. And again, that plays a bit to your question. I, I think, I think PSM have had values and the scrum guides had values in for a long time. And I think the tr the trainers are doing an awesome job. And I think they do facilitate activities on values, but the human brain is magical in the way. It sort of absorbs only other things that it fits its own mental model. Um, so again, it's back to the car. Teach really teach values in a, in a, in a traditional way. But if you take a team to values, nothing will stick because that person doesn't want to explore that thing. But scrum Lake isn't organized that way. So scrum lakes are like a light, one of these books from my youth where you open it and go to page 10, go to page 15, the team vote where they want to go, they will go somewhere else. Then they discover their values as part of that other journey. And then the next workshop, they go to another part and these values come up again a little bit off to the side and the next one, they go, well, let's go down to the valleys. And then they dive down into the valleys. They dive down when they, when they've got the diving experience, when they've got an understanding of the process, you kind of do. And it's how a team works with squad. You don't just, you can dump, but jump in with value straight away. You can do working agreements. You can do all of these things. But I think the value comes from doing the process of scrum three, five, three, the shallow scrub, you, you, then you then sort of get a bit deeper. Then you embodies the values and you understand the theory of what you're doing. And then you're doing deepest grump and, and then it grows and grows and then it, it then accelerates. And then it becomes what it can be. But again, most teams don't even get beneath the choppy surface. They've got this really choppy surface, no bedrock. And it's really muddy. And they can never get down to the bottom because they're not even following a simple process of what scrum is. So they can't even get down to, they can't get beneath a couple of feet beneath the sea.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, you're right. If you dove straight down. No, I agree with that now. Yeah. If you went, if you said we're just going to do a class on just the values. Yeah. People, it would probably be, would turn people off pretty quickly. Right. I was thinking the metaphor here, as you were talking with the Lake, so it's kind of like, what, what does it, if you dive down too fast or if you come up too fast, you get the bands, right. If you go down too, too fast, too quickly and come up, you'll get the bands. So you want to take it slow, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah. And in our, you know, in our model of scrum scrums, a Lake and trust is oxygen. It's the oxygen bubbles. And then the scrum team is a submarine is a yellow submarine because it's clearly a yellow submarine. And the scrum team members fit within that. And the yellow submarine has oxygen inside of it. Yeah. But as you dive deeper, you're diving more individually, but you're diving together and you're exploring further. And your oxygen's growing. The, the trust is growing your trust in each other's growing. When you're diving, you need to have trust in the people that you're diving with. And then when you dive down further down, you then are in a really good place to explore those values and to explore empiricism and lean thinking. And again, this is what, this is what, this is what I do with teams. When I'm working with teams, you, you do the shallow stuff. You follow a process, you get deeper and deeper. And then into the retrospectives, into, into the knowledge and experience, you bring things in interact, respect as your theme values in you theme in the five dysfunctions of team, you bring in some stuff and empiricism, and you bring us to stuff on lean thinking, waste, um, mover, moody and mover. Uh, you bring stuff around us incremental and intuitive. You bring in some stuff around. Yeah. It's just the growth of teams and kind of learning organizations and how all of this connects and combines with each other. And it's an overall system.
Speaker 1:So if much want the light, if the light is like scrum and with, with, with scrum, if you, if you want doing everything, then you, aren't doing scrum very much. Like the Lake, the Lake has value as a whole system, rather than if you take one piece out. Sure. It might give you something, but it doesn't give you it doesn't give you everything. Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Completely. Totally. Well, yeah. This has been great guys. Yeah. I appreciate this deep dive. Um, anything else we can offer up to anybody there for our listeners?
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess one thing we'd say John, I mean, we've made the images available now, haven't we?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. They are. We need to figure out how we're going to make them fully accessible. We might put them out on our website, but yeah. Get in contact with myself and[inaudible], and we can sort of, that you can provide images if you're wanting to explore some of the metaphors with team outside of our workshops. Um,
Speaker 3:Great. And, uh, what's your ear. Can you tell if, if people haven't heard the first two episodes, what, what are your email addresses again? They can get ahold of you there.
Speaker 4:It's uh, yeah. It's, uh, I, I say that john@scrumlake.com orRyan@scrumlake.com, um, but yeah, we might put them even put them on the website, uh, as sort of something public for people to download. Um, but again, the value is back to that training, teaching thing, the value comes from working with other scrum masters around this stuff. Um, there's value in working with your team as well. And I think it's back to Ryan's question. What's more valuable. Is it working with other people in a safe place where you can explore some of these concepts, maybe as a scrum master, you haven't dived down to the values. Maybe you've not explored the theory, or maybe you've not explored them with other people in a group. Do you want to jump straight into doing that straight with teams? Or do you want to do that with some friendly faces from all over the world before you take it
Speaker 3:To teams? It's up to you, but yeah. Drop us a message. And we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll provide you with some kind of resources to help you do that with teams, if that's what you want to do first, but yeah. Or come and join us in one of our workshops. Right. And, yeah, sorry. I was going to say, I guess the other thing is that if you would like us to help you lead a workshop with you, with your teams, John, and I I'm sure it would be happy to work with you to help. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And just a reminder check, check the site, uh, scrum link.com for upcoming, uh, upcoming sessions, uh, scrum link, I believe. Uh, you guys try to have them once a twice a month, correct. Every other week or just as, um, as demand is there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. Yeah. So, uh, thanks guys, John Ryan, thank you very much for joining us this, uh, this a wrap up our three-part series, uh, on scrum link. So hope everyone's enjoyed it. Uh, as much as I have, I thoroughly enjoy this. So looking forward to seeing everyone in that scrum, like, uh, once again, please email me Greg Miller at the agile, within.com. And don't forget our contest. Please email me, uh, for the contest to win tickets, to scrum link. We're going to be giving away some tickets to scrum like here. Uh, so you can attend that on me. So reach out to me on Facebook, LinkedIn, particularly, um, also on Twitter. Love to hear from you comments, questions, suggestions, like to interact with everyone. And also please, uh, if you're so inclined, uh, reach out to me on Patrion. If you want to support the show on a, of a monthly
Speaker 2:[inaudible].