The Agile Within
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The Agile Within
Scrum Lake Episode 2: Dive into the values in the Lake with Co-creators Ryan Brook and John Albrecht
Diving into the lake!
Episode 2 in this 3 part series on the popular Scrum Lake. Co-creators Ryan and John discuss the foundation of Scrum: the values, and empirical theory. We talk about why having a solid bedrock is so important to be successful in an Agile environment.
If you've not heard of Scrum Lake until now, you'll want to catch this series that helps you really grasp Scrum in a unique way. If you've struggled with its roles, process, and yes values (there are 5 if you didn't know), then these guys will help you understand them more clearly. So come along on this voyage to grasp the deeper meaning of the most popular Agile framework in the world!
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Welcome to scrum Lake. We are Lakeside today. God, let the love to see you again. I'm going to turn my camera back on. I'm going to keep it going. I talked way too much that buy-in sorry. That's okay. So Brian's chat. I saw Ryan's chat come in. And I was like, I was thinking about Ryan stopping him anyway. Yeah, I didn't, I apologize. I wasn't trying to be rude, John. Uh, I apologize. Uh, but yeah, that was, that was a great segue. You were doing there into the second episode. It actually works out quite nicely because it ended up being as, as the teaser. Yeah, it was a teaser. It was great. It was great. Yeah. But yeah, I didn't want you to go too far. Cause John Ryan was like, ah, it's gonna like, don't give away too much. Yeah. I just got that chat. There was on LinkedIn. Did you put on LinkedIn? I know there's three quads. Three squad cast. Don't give too much away in episode two to, okay, cool. Yeah. I was like, he's doing, doing a great segue. I want to pick up on that. Yeah. Yeah. You guys want me to step away for a break or anything? I know you have to go. I'm good to carry on whenever I'm going to give a hard, hard stop. Okay. Two seconds. Okay, cool. I want to be conscious of your time, Ryan. I know you have a hard stops. Hey on, because my wife will kill me. She said only because my wife that's, that's a pretty important, uh,
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast that challenges you from the inside. Come be more and discover the agile within. And now here's your host, Greg Miller. Okay. Welcome to episode two of scrum Lake. John and Ryan are back with us. If you listened to the first episode we talked about, we were Lakeside at scrum Lake as John does, and Ryan does in their scrum Lake. So now episode two, we're going to dive a little bit deeper, go into the deep dive. Maybe get down to the bedrock. Talk about the structure, the values, all that good stuff here. So guys, let's dive into that. Where do you want to go here in the Lake?
Speaker 3:I think it'd be good to give, uh, perhaps a little overview, John. Uh, talk about some of the things, talk about the structure, where it came from and how that sits with scrum. What do you think?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that'd be cool. Maybe we do, do we do maybe an overview or do we just start at the top and start diving down? Which kind of you can go different ways through the Lake. W what do you think, man, do we, I think it'd be overall
Speaker 3:Of an overview. So I think, uh, for those people listening, uh, scrum, uh, is, is like a Lake to John. And I is the metaphor that we use, uh, for, for our workshops, uh, scrum, like workshops. And it's because scrummy is like a system it's complex. And to us, this Lake, it has, it has walls. It has boundaries. Um, and it's, it's supported at its base by a bedrock of values. Uh, and those bedrock values are the scrum values. They hold up the Lake and they allow that Lake to be deep, to have depth. Uh, they are, they are layers of sedimentary rock. They are, they are sprinkled, they are built, they grow and get deeper. Um, and like I said, they are, they are what are, what our Lake is built on. Uh, on top of those, on top of those values, we have, we have our theory, it's these, but it's the, the heart of our Lake. We have lean thinking. We have empiricism and surrounding those all still in the base of this Lake with our, with our transparency inspection adaptation, our OODA loop, uh, at the base of our Lake. So our Lake is effectively built on our bedrock of values, but then supported on top of that, uh, with, uh, with our core, with our, with our scrum theory, empiricism and lean thinking above that, you then have the body of the Lake, which is, is deep but supported by that bedrock. Um, within that you have things that are like your, uh, you have your artifacts, you have a treasure chest, uh, you have a scroll I'm purposely not giving away what these metaphors, just yet. We'll get into that in a little bit, but we have our, we have our explorers, we have a, we have a ship on a screen, a submarine to do some exploration. Um, but everything that is scrum exists within the Lake, because as soon as you transcend, as soon as you go outside of the boundaries of our Lake, as soon as you go outside of the boundaries of scrum, you are no longer doing scrum. Um, and that's okay, but I'll like, it is bounded to within scrum. What's your answer?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's an ecosystem. Um, and there appears to be a cycle through it, a cycle through the doing and the being through the top and the bottom. And he goes around and round through that through empiricism and lean thinking, but it's supported by the bedrock and it's made possible because of the practices at the top. Um, and that's good for everyone. It's good for the folks within the Lake. It's good for the folks outside of the Lake, because trust belts, um, the environment by doing scrum, by being by embodying values, trust builds for everyone, uh, because, uh, the pillows come to life. Um, and then the water becomes clean outside of that within the Lake. And then the water beyond becomes like clean and stakeholders come to the Lake and they work with us and, and it, and it just gets better. It's a better environment. The Lake scrum Lake, like scrub sustains a wider ecosystem of the, uh, of the organization, uh, and, and customers and people beyond. Um, and by doing scrum and by being, being agile and embodying values you, um, yeah, it's good for everyone. Um, but I think so often it's not, uh, I think so often you don't have, you don't have that duality within teams. You don't have that duality within organizations, and you certainly don't have the visual metaphors, um, for people to see that duality, scrum Lake is very visual and allows people to explore that and that duality and how that affects people beyond scrub.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I was thinking while you were talking there, so you need, you need, you asked me in the last episode, John, what, what was I surprised about from my time at scrum Lake? And I said that folks, um, struggle with the values at the bedrock there. So what, what do you guys think? What, uh, what would happen to someone if you know, they're doing scrum and they, they just, they just stay at the top of the leg and they don't dig into the bedrock. What's, what's, what's going to be the outcome.
Speaker 4:Uh, can I, can I share a story? Would that be okay from a past life? For sure. I was on a WebEx. It must have been 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago. And, uh, I was with another chap. We were agile. We were doing CAMBA at the time we were agile, so it must be in 10 years ago. Um, and, uh, we would, we doing camp and we, we saw ourselves as agile. Maybe you weren't doing agile, but, but I think we were, and we were on the WebEx. Um, people are talking about kind of, uh, development life cycle and things, and the process and the steps that you follow on the process about 15 on the call and someone said, and then, and then you generate the code and then Mike, my colleague look at each other. Sounds interesting. Um, so I say that's what that means. Okay, cool. What does that mean? So, um, my colleague, uh, yeah, we just really interested, I guess we could score mass. Do you want to, you want to make these things transparent? You want to understand that, um, you just mentioned, and then you generate the code. That sounds really fantastic. That sounds really cool. Are you a tool? Are you doing anything? How's, how's that code generated and chat? I know that's when we give it to the developers and they generate the code. I think that is the process of software development. That is the Tayloristic view. That's the complicated view that, that I experienced back when I went into that Prince do transformation. It's a process. And the software development is a small little chunk where you just generate the code, you follow the process and out pops the code and you use the code. That's not, that's not agile. That's just people following a process. Um, and that's not based on empiricism and lean thinking. Um, and I'm going to riff off that a and again, in a previous life. Um, and this is, this is, this is, uh, a lean thinking thought puzzle. If you want to dig a hole, if you want to dig a hole, you don't really want diggers. You just want holes. The diggers waste, you don't want, you don't want diggers in the same way. You don't want software. You don't want them mobile phone apps. You want business problems solved. And if you get away with not having software, you get away with not having the software. So by breaking it down into a process and just you generate the code, you want, you want really resolving user need. You aren't really empowering people to understand what people really need and giving folks the flexibility to come up with something, something in Def, which will exceed what people need. You're just breaking it down into a Tayloristic set of steps, where you've got this thing. You go through all of these steps, and then you have this thing as a specification it's waterfall. Yeah. And then you just generate that and then it comes out and then it doesn't work, or it doesn't give you what you want. And it certainly doesn't satisfy the customer. You might do. You might be very lucky, but it won't satisfy the customer, but scrums power and Agile's power, agile manifesto. It's not about. And then they just generate the code and I'm just hooking off the back of this. It's not about just generating the code. It's truly cross-functional. It is truly revolutionary. It's about empowered, engaged engine, engaged individuals who are, who are empowered to be awesome and work and understand user needs and deliver something of value. Every sprint, if you're doing scrum. Um, and I don't know where I'm going with this, but I think that's the danger of just teaching the process. That's the danger of people following the process, it's providing a very complicated in Canadian terms, a very complicated solution, but it's not actually making customers experience better. It's not actually resolving things to do that. It's bigger than following a process. You need the values, you need lean thinking, you need empiricism, you need to grow software through people. And I think in, even in how many years after all of this has been discussed agile, so old scrum, so old and new product development games. So world, but yet we're still talking about complicated work where we do all these things, and then we just generate code. That's not my actual,
Speaker 2:Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan, any, you have any take on that? What I was kind of bringing it back
Speaker 3:To, to metaphors everything's complex, like John was saying, sometimes things can appear simple, but actually complexity lives within scrum. It lives within Lake. It is exists because of complexity. Um, and, and for us, I think that's why our, why our Lake a surface is, is choppy. It's shallow, shallow execution of scrum is, is very mechanicals on B. Like it, it may, well, it may well achieve an outcome, whether that's the outcome that you desire, but all like is as you get deeper, as you explore more through scrum things become clearer. This starts where you might find your treasure chest. You might find your value. Um, but equally along the way, you might find things. Uh, you might find sharks, you might find your impediments. You might find octopus is in the form of technical debt that just wrapped their tentacles around, around your, your product, around your, your code, your, uh, the thing you are developing. Uh, yeah. That is complex.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's because people are complex,
Speaker 4:But the dentist zombie scrum stuff, and yeah, we, we love the idea of zombies gum, but how do you enunciate that People are complex. People are fabulously complex and it's through them working together. It's through them, sharing their stories with each other and understanding what customers need and having empathy with each other and customers that's where you get true value delivered. And that isn't about following a process. That's about people working together to understand what their processes within some enabling constraints.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So as I was thinking, as you guys were talking, so as we, if you're, if you're, if someone's never been to scrum, like before, which I'm sure a lot of listeners are here, some have been, I've been as we go down into the Lake, how, um, what am I going to learn about the, what can I expect to learn by going into the bedrock, the deep dive? Am I going to learn about all the values? Or how am I going to learn that? How do, how do you take me through that? Just, can you, uh, go through that a little bit for show?
Speaker 3:Yes. So our workshops are structured in kind of three different ways. So sometimes we, we share them, we publicize one to say, we are going to take a look at the lesser accountabilities. We're going to take a look at the artifacts. Uh, and then we will, we'll work a path through the specific one we've advertised. Uh, but sometimes we have a free dive, which we did, uh, recently, uh, we tied up, we don't know what we're going to look through. We, we don't vote are kind of a simplified version of the Lake. And I think we chose to go through accountabilities the other day. Um, um, we tend to start at the surface. So the surface is about sharing, true stories, being real. Um, and then as we kind of translate me as we get a bit deeper through the Lake, we pull the stories, we pull those real stories down. And as groups, we, we break them apart. We talk about what's good to what's maybe not so good. What, what are the actions? What are the areas of improvement? Uh, particularly as we get, as we get deeper, that's where we use the language from, from the scrum guide. And we'll, we'll, we'll tear it apart. What does that mean to you? How well that to you, has it ever not been like that to you? So talking about those rules, uh, when we break them, when, why they're broken, uh, why they shouldn't be broken, why it's important, that, that, that is a boundary in scrum. Uh, so to answer your question, Greg, I'm going to answer it by saying, like, I can't answer, I don't know what people are going to learn, what they're going to do. Uh, all I can say is that sometimes the topic is advertised and that's what we will discuss, but the, the knowledge, what they're going to learn is from the participants. It's not, it's not driven by John RI uh,
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's the output of the conversations. It's, it's probably worth, maybe I'll die if down I'll just will. I think Ryan is a great example of the story, but if I can just go through that again, again, say we were talking about accountabilities. So a load of folks turn up to scrum Lake. We go to Lakeside, we, we talk and chat about what the it's a safe place. It's about listening to each other. It's about sharing stories. It's about sharing metaphors. And we do that kind of getting to know each other and what people need from each other, what everything else. And we do all that Lakeside takes about 10 minutes. And then we jump in and we start at the top. So say, let's say we're doing accountabilities, everyone's dot voted. Most people want to explore accountabilities in detail. They want to really break down what accountabilities are in scrubbing and why that's important. So we get to the soap. So in scrum, like as, and just said, the surface is turbulent it shallow scrum. Yeah. It might be a shallow Lake. There might be really bad weather in the organization around you. The water may be really choppy. Um, you may not be greater swimming and the folks around you may be new to it, and they may be just paddling in the water. Uh, and it could be really muddy because in that shallow Lake, it could be really muddy. It could be low transparency, it could be all of these things. So we invite folks to share a story. Um, and we use, we use the metaphors. We use, we use the metaphor and accounted, but just use the metaphor of us as a submarine, as the metaphor for a scrum team, um, kind of, uh, a vehicle for self managing, uh, for exploring. And it contains the oxygen. It contains us as a container, uh, for the scrum team and we all fit within it. But we invite folks at the surface to put on a post-it note. And the question is a shower story where your own Lake was turbulent due to misaligned scrum accountabilities. So let's get real here. Let's, let's share real stories with each other about when we had a turbulent time and we've all had turbines. I've had turbulent times, everyone asked me, maybe don't talk about them because we don't have places where we can talk about them. Um, perhaps people new to scrum past people didn't see value in things. Perhaps people wanted to control things or adjust things, or perhaps people didn't want to change anything. People share their stories and we all play it back, but like a retro and have one. She has the stories and people go, Oh yeah, that was cool. And then we break it down. We go into breakout rooms and we construct new stories from those stories. We end two breakout rooms, construct two unique stories, which are a summary of everyone's real life stories or fictional stories from the past. And then we break down and break out all the good things about the stories, all the positive things about the stories, because often we don't explore the good when we see the bad. So explore, look at things as a group five or six people, four or five people. So all the possible good things then as a group, five or six, scrum masters, great, and all the less good things. And these are tricky stories. These are real life scenarios or amalgamated scenarios that five scrum masters have come together as a construct. And there's a lot of really tricky, real situations that you see in the real world that you don't really see and training, or you don't really have conversations about and people explore and talk about all those things that are less good. And that's cathartic. People are saying, well, yeah, I'm, I'm in the Netherlands. And I experienced this, or, Oh yeah, I'm in Dubai. And I experienced this. I'm in tech society. So people around the world sharing these good and the bad stories about the things, which are all very similar, we've all experienced different things. Yeah. So what was good and what was less good? Okay. That's cool. It's good to share. But that's transparency inspection. It's not about adaption. We want, as, as you, you need adaption, you need all three. You need to actually do something about it. You need to change something. That's right. So in that, in that scenario, we acknowledge the good, we acknowledge the less good as a group of five or six scrum masters. What are all the possible options let's brainstorm, everything that we could possibly do. And we explore those options. We talk about all these options and we put them on post-it notes and, uh, discuss them. Hey, it gets really interesting. And we talk about as a group, what stops the good becoming good? So what's stopping the good becoming grid and what's stopping what impact does the bad half honors and folks ask questions to each other and pick it apart in real, real finite detail and true details. And we come up with some really complicated, the complicated, probably more complex, actually complex options in that breakout. And then we come back together again and we, we switch and we share with each other, all of those stories and people have learned that the environments or the systems, the things are they experienced and not unique, the things they experienced that other people are experiencing as well. And they've come out with some real things that they can take forwards options that, that might work in that scenario that have worked for other people. It's that the whole is, is, is bigger than the parts. It's not things that you could think of on your own. You might've thought of them, but you've not had the space. You've not had, uh, a clean work environment with other people to bounce your ideas off. So these might be your ideas that you thought of, but you haven't been able to enunciate. It could be the thing that you're challenged with at the moment. And you've come up with your own solution, which has been melded on with five or six grand masters and coaches from all around the world. And you come away with some options. So that's, that's, that's, that's a real detailed walkthrough of just one of, one of the exercises in scrum Lake. But hopefully that gives you hope. It gives all the listeners a sense of just what, 30 minutes, 25 minutes of a scrum Lake workshop. And we continue on that. We continue that journey. We continue doing that really important, deep work that scrum masters don't get in their normal normal environments.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you for that, John. Yeah. That's that's yeah. That's, that's what I wanted to get at was that, that structure there I've been through that. So the, the breakout sessions, I can tell everybody if you've never been there, the breakout sessions are really, really wonderful that John was talking about, uh, ones led by Ryan ones led by John usually. And the smaller sessions is where the, um, and, and these, these a scrum Lake is, is small, right? From my experience, it's been, uh, what, 14, 15, 16 people. And then you break out the sessions, usually what, seven or eight, uh, per breakout group, is that right? Uh, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We tend to, we did toy with, I think we started at between 15 and 20, but actually John, I think we're, we're trying to, we're bringing that down. Actually, the next few were about 12 because we just felt that it's about connections. It's about personal stories and we want people to become a volt. Passive participant is not about being a passive participant. It's about fully engaging. And we want to give everyone an equal opportunity to be able to do that and share their stories. And if they say, you know what, this is something that is really important for me to discuss. I want to work with you guys when your numbers are too high. That's too many. Yeah. So we, you know, we're experimenting, right? We're, we're doing scrum. We're finding out what works for our participants. We, you know, Greg, we asked for feedback at the end of every session. Uh, well, don't like things then we, we genuinely do, uh, John and I meet once, maybe twice a week. And we act on that feedback and improve things.
Speaker 4:I actually adjusted the size up and down. We started smaller and then people said we wanted to be Epic because we want more conversations, more insights. We made it bigger. And then folks said, Oh, it could be a tiny little bit smaller. Cause they were now adjusting it to make it tighter as well. And you know, you know, like when you have a retro where it can, sometimes it goes back to some fluids. It does. I think this is going to be one of those ones where we just flex it a little bit. Um, but that's, that's building a product. You want to build something that is valuable and does the right things. We want to listen to feedback and make those slight adjustments to make it even more effective and enjoyable for everyone next time.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah. Well, that's, that's based on the, what you decide here, I'm going to take and take the opportunity. So, uh, if you heard what John and Ryan said that they're shrinking, well, this is March. So who knows by the time this comes out where we'll be, but, uh, we're shrinking. They are shrinking the classes down to about 12. So once again, if you're listening to this, the, the code is going to be scrum Lake email. That to me, Greg Miller at the agile, within you'll be entered into a, to win tickets to the now shrunken down scrum Lake. So down to 12 people. So you want to get ahold of these tickets, they're going to sell it even faster. Uh, so go ahead and email me, uh, get into the class. You'll want to get into that. So great. Yeah. So it's good that you're listening to the feedback, just like scrum taking into consideration and adjusting and adapting. That's great. So yeah, we went through the structure there. We went through the deep dive. We got down to the bedrock. Anything else to talk about on this area?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I, I think we, we dive in, so say if we're gaining through accountabilities, you've done that, that kind of exploration of, of, of, of the side where it wasn't working, where it's less working, then we go deeper. Then we start breaking apart, the scrum guide. So, um, we talk about, on the accountability, you talk about the scrum team as a submarine. So we, we use metaphors in scrum Lake an awful lot. And by metaphors, I mean, when something that is like something else and clean language tabs, and these are our metaphors, this is mine and violins, but metaphors. So to us, a scrum team is a bit like a submarine or it's like a submarine. Um, it's a self managing vehicle of exploration and the scrum team fits within the submarine. The submarine has oxygen and our metaphor for oxygen. Well, the metaphor is oxygen, but that's trust. Trust, uh, brings people to life and it's needed to dive deep. It's needed to go deep as needed to be exploring within a Lake is it's the thing that sustains the thing that grows and you need to live the values. We're getting that. So that's even deeper, but we have this scrum team like a submarine. Um, again, vine talk dirty about the.voting. Um, scrum Lake is different because we don't know where it's going to go. So it was a group of 10, 12, 15 people. Um, folks don't don't vote on the scrum guide. Scrum guide is broken across post-it notes. Um, and they vote on the bits on the scrum guide that they want to inspect in real, real detail they want to do so we made the scrum guide transparent. We can see all broken to shards. It's, it's, it's all, they've on post-it notes. We then ask folks which ones they want to inspect, and they don't vote on the pallets that they want to inspect. And then we'd go into more breakouts. So we take a couple of those and we, we take them down onto the next to much deeper level of the canvas where we break in the depth. We break apart that guide in details, those scrum masters, uh, and some really, really a wide variety of thinking a scrum muscle of the world. And we break apart the guide of what that means. So if you take a bit of the scrum guidance, for example, let's do one they're self managing, meaning they internally decide who does what, when and how that statement from the guide. Yeah. So as a group, what does that mean to you? What does that truly mean to you and why is that important to you? And is it important to you? Maybe it's not important to you? Why is that important to you? Right. And how does it do it? But these are, these are questions. These are questions that as scrum masters, we don't ask of ourselves. We don't pick that apart in that much detail, we do this in retros. This is this fascinating. We do this kind of work with teams and vectors and all the time. It's all about transparency, inspection adoption with teams. Yeah. We make things transparent, folks inspect, and then they make adaptions, but we don't do it on our own discipline as much. We don't really get to the details of what that means. Um, so yeah, we break it apart and then we pull in scenarios, we pull in people's personal and metaphors. We pull in stories of when it happened from when it didn't happen for it. And why is it important? And then we switch and share again. So again, it's that breaking down and then coming up with, what does that mean and how does, how would I adjust how I'm working and how I'm thinking, and should I adjust and what metaphors can I attach? Because metaphors are a powerful tool within the brain for attaching meaning. So metaphors are deep within the brain, and it's a great way of retaining learning. Um, so we we're doing that deep work that we do with teams, but we're doing it with ourselves where we're doing that self care, that, that we don't get the opportunity to do, uh, with other scrum masters from around the world. And when are we now two hours in, we've done a couple of those. We've done a, and we've had a really good time, which is weird because it's a Saturday night and it is in lockdown that wasn't a great time. And we get, we've had fantastic feedback off this. It's like, I know it's amazing. Like people are, yeah, people are saying, this is what I need. I kind of, haven't got this. I haven't got a place to actually do this work, which again, I find really surprising that we, we, we, we preach this almost. We kind of say, this is what needs to happen. We can have, it's a projection on folks, but are we doing this work? Our, so are we doing that continuous improvement for ourselves, right. Or at that deep level or not. So we just, we just, are we just reading books and taking courses while we doing real, co-creative work with other scrum masters and building this stuff and building the knowledge and experience,
Speaker 1:Practice what you create. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was great. Yeah. And I know, I know, uh, I don't think I've stuck around, sometimes you stick around afterwards, like it's 10 o'clock, uh, you stick around and kinda talk with people afterwards, too, right? Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think, I think John tended to, I think you've had you stay up till one o'clock in the morning at some point. Yeah. Very young child. So, uh, unfortunately I don't have to stay awake quite as late as John, but, uh, yeah, we do stick around if people have questions just to talk about, yeah. It's not necessarily about scrum Lake, but it's usually around scrum. Uh, so we talked to people about, uh, what was the last one people were talking about just starting a new role. How would they staff a new role as a scrum master to never been one before? Talk about assessments. We talk about, uh, yeah. Everything, everything and anything.
Speaker 1:I think that's a bet. I'm sorry. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm sorry for jumping in. And yeah, we do. I just wanted to say, it's not it's, it's not, it's not me and Ryan necessarily. We facilitate it. We, we reflect on that journey. People have shared stories. People have built empathy with each other, build trust with each other is a true collaborative event. So if someone's saying, well, I'm, I'm starting as a scrum master here, people will say, well, yeah, we'll, we'll kind of, what's it like, and people tell stories and come up with strategies of what they want to do. It's not, uh, it's not as telling people, we obviously share our experiences as well, uh, and sort of knowledge on these things, but it's a, it's a group effort. It's uh, it's the folks at the workshop working together and discussing stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So, yeah. Thanks. We went all the way down to the deep dive to the bedrock, the structure that's yeah. Laura, I learned a lot about that. So anything else on the second episode,
Speaker 4:I think that's just, it's worth saying that's one strand of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I've talked very, I have talked quite. In-depth actually about the journey through accountabilities, down to the, to the Sandy, before you get to the bedrock. Every workshop we'd done is completely completely effort because it's been a different mix of people. Some we've explored different values. Some we've no we've explored events. We've explored artifacts. We focus in on to empiricism. We focus in on lean thinking. Um, we've gone where people want to go. So each one I've learnt and grown from different ones. And I want to carry on coming to these myself. I want to, because I want to keep on building my knowledge and experience and yeah.
Speaker 1:Learn from others. Uh,
Speaker 4:It's more than just one thing. Um, and we could, I could, I could keep on talking about it. I could talk about all the values and the bad drug, but I've just given us a little snippet of part of our mental model. We have a lot more metaphors and a lot more images in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I know. Uh, they're all, uh, I think I've been to three or four and they all have been different to your point. Yes. They've all been slighted and I've gotten so much out of them. So for everybody listening here, we do have to be conscious of time. Ryan has to, has to get out of here soon. He's got a young child to take care of and I think his wife is going to kill him. I think if he doesn't get out of here, what he told me during break, must've said that she won't be listening to this. She won't be listening to this. Okay. Yeah. So for our listeners, we don't want, we don't want Ryan to die. So yeah. So, and let's just be transparent. So this is our second episode and, uh, the three of us have discussed whether we want to have another, a third episode. Um, so what do you guys think? Do we want to have a third episode or do you want to just call this the second one and the end of it?
Speaker 3:I think there's a, there's a lot more scope that we can talk about. It's whether you believe your, your listeners would find it valuable. I think we can talk about impacts. We can talk about, uh, some specific metaphors. Uh, it's entirely up to you, Greg,
Speaker 1:So, okay. All right. So everybody, um, I get to make the decision. So yeah, I say we do a third episode. I I'm excited. I really enjoyed this. I hope everyone listening has, so we'll wrap up the second episode here and we will, uh, let Ryan go and let Ryan and John go, it's laying over there. And, uh, once again, remember to send me an email Greg Miller at the agile, within.com with on this episode, it's scrum link, enter the contest to win tickets to scrum Lake sells out quickly. You heard that they have now possibly reduced their attendance down to 12. So you want to do that quickly. These tickets will go very quickly. So that wraps up this episode. Uh, please reach out to me, uh, subscribe on any of the podcast apps. You're listening to contact me with show episodes, suggestions, uh, comments on this episode. Uh, if you've liked this, uh, what we've been talking about, please let me know. I really appreciate that. And don't forget to, um, reach out. Uh, I have a new Patrion. If you want to support the show, uh, there's a link in my episodes through Patrion. Uh, we would appreciate any, uh, monthly contributions. You guys want to support the show. If you really enjoy that, I really enjoy giving this to everybody here like John and Ryan do. Uh, so thank you for joining us. Look forward to, uh, the third episode. So this has been Greg, John and Ryan. Thanks for joining us, uh, agile within where we help you to be more agile.
Speaker 2:[inaudible].