The Agile Within
Providing agile insights into human values and behaviors through genuine connections.
The Agile Within
Scrum Lake Episode 1: The origins of a simple metaphor, and its worldwide appeal with Co-creators Ryan Brook and John Albrecht
Just dipping my toe in!
Episode 1 in this 3 part series on the popular Scrum Lake. Co-creators Ryan and John discuss why they created it, who it is for, and what all the fuss is about. We discuss how this simple lake metaphor has appealed to many from all over the world, including me. My two UK mates and I have a great time hanging out at the shallow end of the lake.
If you've not heard of Scrum Lake until now, you'll want to catch this series that helps you really grasp Scrum in a unique way. If you've struggled with its roles, process, and yes values (there are 5 if you didn't know), then these guys will help you understand them more clearly. So come along on this voyage to grasp the deeper meaning of the most popular Agile framework in the world!
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-agile-within
Starting a pretty cool series today. It's called scrum Lake. We are the co-creators of scrum Lake, John and Ryan. You may or may not have heard of it. It's been popular on LinkedIn has people from all over the world. Joining to talk about scrum in the metaphor of a Lake, John Albrecht and Ryan, Brooke have put this together. John has been a frequent speaker at conferences in different parts of the world. They're both from the UK. John was just at agile 20 reflect. Some of you may have seen him there. He does really awesome workshops that his company all agile and we're lucky enough to have them today. Starting off with this episode, there'll be three episodes. And also one thing with this, uh, with this series, please email me gregMiller@theagilewithin.com. They've been gracious enough to give us a couple tickets. We got some tickets to the popular scrum Lake happens about every two weeks. Sometimes monthly depends on the crowd. They sell out very fast. So what I want you to do is go ahead and listen for the code word. In this episode, email me the code word, gregMiller@thealgiawithin.com. You'll be entered into the contest. We'll draw names and get a hold of you and give you some tickets to scrum Lake. You don't want to miss that. So very excited about this. Here we go. We're going to start off in the shallow end.
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast that challenges you from the inside and discover the agile within. And now here's your host, Greg Miller. Welcome to scrum Lake. We are Lakeside today with our, uh, co-creators of scrum Lake. We have John Albrecht and Ryan Brooke. Welcome to the show guys,
Speaker 3:Grandkids. Hi, Greg, how are you?
Speaker 1:Good. I'm doing real good. How are you guys doing today? I haven't talked to you in awhile.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Pretty good. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah. Same here. Same here. Live in, live in the UK. Dream of rain and enthusiasm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Live. Is it snowing over there?
Speaker 3:That's nice. That's just in the movies, Greg. Um, now when you, when you see pictures of like, um, the countryside and snow, that's like a one in one in five year, one, one in 10 year event. Very rarely snows. Very rarely.
Speaker 1:We just had a lot of snow in my part of the country. I live in Ohio, so we, wow. Uh, end of February, we had a big snows and now it's like in the forties and fifties and it's all melted, so it's all good. Yeah. So, and my wife took off to Florida, so I'm by myself actually right now. Oh, wow. So yeah. So, uh, guys, thank you very much for joining us today. So, um, there are a lot of listeners out there who are aware of scrum Lake and a lot of our listeners who are not aware of scrum, like personally, I am fairly new. I've been to several episodes sessions with you guys over the last few months and thoroughly enjoyed it thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. And that's why I wanted to have you guys on to talk about it. So today I want to talk about, uh, more like the origins, uh, as John does it we're Lakeside right now at the top of the Lake. If some of you listeners have been through it, uh, John starts off with Lakeside. So we're at the top there. And you're gonna kind of talk about the origins of scrum, like maybe how, uh, how it got started and maybe a little bit about you guys. So, um, I'll stop talking and turn it over to whoever wants to get started. Maybe just start talking a little bit, maybe about yourself. Maybe let's start with that.
Speaker 3:Do you want to start drawing or do you want me to stop you go for it? I know when we normally kick off, you normally kick us off. So, uh, let's carry on with that, man. Uh, great. Uh, yeah, so Hey everybody, I'm Ryan, I'm a scrum master from the UK. Uh, so I've kind of been in the, in the sector and being a scrum master for well, four to five years now. Uh, so I mainly work at team level, so I, I don't do a huge amount at, um, uh, management level. Um, so we obviously do interact with the organization, but I'm mainly brought in as a consultant for teams. That's do some turnaround activities with them. Um, so yeah, I first met John or I felt like it was probably mid last year, John. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, we were. And kind of how we met. I say, Matt is where to use the word Matt, in it in a Corona virus society never we've only ever discussed, uh, online. Uh, John was basically interested in doing some advanced assessments, um, which I I've been lucky enough to already pass. So we kind of started discussing that and riffing off it. And scrum like was really, was really an output of, of some of those discussions. But we can get into that in a little bit. John, do you wanna talk about yourself?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Thanks man. Um, yeah, I'm John Albrecht. I'm also a scrum master. Um, I'm what, I'm a scrum master, but I'm an ex software developer. Um, I kind of was a coder for my child, uh, sort of worked, uh, in various organizations and sort of went through a Prince to transformation in 2003 as an info. Um, and sort of, we kind of before that we were working directly with a contact center and then we sort of kind of hit a wall. Um, and it was surprising kind of how, how going through a transformation from a small team working directly with users, uh, to, to kind of move into change requests, how much that impacted. So the work we're doing. Um, so I started kind of Googling around. There's gotta be a better way than Prince to and bumped into agile, the agile manifesto, which I, I loved, um, and XP, uh, sort of gone on a journey since then, uh, kind of went from XP then to, to Kanban and then finally three to scrum. Um, but, uh, I guess I'm a principles lead. Cause back in the day we talked about principles and practices. I'm a principal led scrum master. Um, but yeah, I'm a scrum master, but I don't feel like a scrum master. I still feel about like I'm a developer, uh, similar to divine. I work with teams. I like growing teams from within and being able to step back and sort of enabled them to be as awesome as they want to be, and then working with the organization. But yeah, just a scrum master that work with teams and again, kind of the origin story of scrum Lake and how I met Ryan. Like Ryan said, we were, we were working towards, uh, some more advanced scrum certification, uh, kind of work and just having discussions, uh, discussions about scrum discussions, about agile discussions, about values. And we just started talking about the Lake. Um, we started sort of drawing different ways of describing scrum, um, and, and talking a little bit in metaphors and pictures instead of attaching things to things. And this thing started to build. Um, and we thought we'd share with a little bit, but it sort of, it came out of our natural conversations and it's really hazy. I, I can't, I can't really put my finger on when the thing kind of came and came to life. Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was interesting because one of the discussions that we actually had was about house of scrum. If you remember John and we were talking about one of the ways we would, we were preparing for some of these assessments was we were tearing things apart. And we were talking about what we liked about the house of scrum. If, if people haven't come across it, uh, it's, it's kind of a, well, it's a house, it's a house bill using the pillars of scrum. Uh, but also based on, on, on a, on a foundation of, of values and then, and then topped with a nice roof. Uh, and it was a, it was a nice metaphor, uh, but for us, metaphors are deeply personal things and it just didn't seem the metaphor that, that, that engaged us. And so that's when we started talking about the Lake its overall structure, uh, and it just seemed to work. Uh, we'd read lots of things online. Uh, people use different metaphors things like an iceberg, um, for scrub, um, they use mountains, uh, jungles, but we just came across this idea of a Lake and we riffed on it and it's gone quite well. So far. Wouldn't you say, John?
Speaker 4:Yeah, no. Yeah. Quite well gone. It's gone ridiculously well, um, people seem to connect with it. Uh, people seem to enjoy the workshops we run, uh, and it seems to help people get an, a deeper understanding, um, of what scrum is. Um, yeah, no you've reminded me on it. Yeah. We were talking about that. How's the scrum, um, which is an awesome metaphor. And I think, I think lot, a lot of, a lot of what people do is standing on the shoulders of giants. You stand on the, the awesome work of the folks that have come before you to all standing on the shoulders of giants and you build on that, um, Oasis. Yeah, I, yeah. Uh, and, and yeah, and another and another metaphor as well, which is interesting. Um, but yeah,
Speaker 3:You,
Speaker 4:You, you build on what comes before. It's creative commons. You, you take and, and scrum is a great example of this. Um, you can sort of expand, you can explore, you can, you can use the greatness that comes before you. Um, but that, that conversation we, we do, I like houses. Graham, I think is an awesome metaphor, but it, it feels static and scrums so much more than that. It's an ecosystem, it's an evolving system. It's, it's something that's a container for other things. And it has depth. How's the scrum has depth. It's got, uh, it's got foundations and it's great, but I think the metaphor of a Lake, the metaphor of a Lake sort of, I personally like that because it kind of talks to the ecosystem of scrum and that evolving, changing,
Speaker 3:Uh, that ever changing cycle that you go that,
Speaker 1:Um, and then the other thing I like is, uh, yeah, I think to us
Speaker 3:Is, is very systemic. Like you're saying it's about an ecosystem. A house of scrum is absolutely a fantastic metaphor, but what the purpose of our discussions between, between John and I was to get a little bit more deeper than that. How's a scrum is very much a training, a metaphor, a good way of understanding. Um, to us, we were trying to get more depth of knowledge. Uh, and, and the house of scrum perhaps seemed over-simplify to us at that point for our use. So a Lake gave us more scope to, to include the, the artifacts, the accountabilities to really build up a story, uh, to aid us on our journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so, as, I'm sorry, as I'm, as I'm listening to you guys talk, and since I've been, I've been through many, many episodes with you guys classes, I mean, um, I'm thinking, as you're talking about, if you, the metaphor of the iceberg, I've seen that before. Yes. And the house of scrum, I think everyone's seen the, the ha there's different houses, you know, house of safe and, and house of lean, all that stuff. Um, and if you would've gone with that, there's so many things that, that you wouldn't have been able to go into that you do with scrum Lake. And I think, uh, Lake EV you know, most everyone's been to a Lake or an ocean or something, right. That the things you use, like the simple things like treasure and, you know, the boats and you're on the surface and then diving in, um, you know, the, the transparency and the people with the goggles and fishing and you go down and I mean, everyone, I think everyone can relate to that. If you go back to your, you know, when you were in science class and stuff, and the using the house or an iceberg, you can't really, in my opinion, I mean, you could have used the house, but, and you could have still done, gone with the bedrock, but, um, and possibly you could have maybe made a physical house of rooms and stuff, I guess I could have worked for, um, worked as well. But I just think personally, uh, from someone, you know, who's gone through the class, I think it's so many levels that I can, I'm able to relate to, um, by seeing your visuals by, by even thinking in my head, back to my life, you know, when the times I've been at a Lake, right. And, and you see this, you guys bring it forward and you're like, Oh, this remember this, you know, you were at a Lake, remember this, this is what it's like. Oh. And it just, like, I think it resonates with so many people. I just, I just think it's awesome. Thanks, Greg.
Speaker 3:We're actually doing at the moment is preparing for a talk that we're giving in a couple of days. Aren't we, John. Um, and we're talking about where the Lake came from and why metaphors so powerful. And it really comes from a theory called sticky teaching. Uh, and it's, uh, it's about a way of providing metaphors, provide hooks for knowledge. So like you were saying, Greg, you kind of relate to things in your personal experience. You know, this is why a Lake is like something and why it can be considered to be like scrum. It is a tangible thing that everyone understands because we, we baseline, we all, we all have a common understanding. It's like a spade, a spade to use the English idiom for everyone knows what that is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's that on more so when I, when I'm talking with folks, I I've my personal metaphor for how I think is a Lake. Um, it's a model of how I think, and it's something really personal to me as well. Um, I've printed off pictures of Lake lakes and I've put them on my wall behind the computer, um, as something to look at, it's something calming. It's something interesting. It's something that's a really nice place to go. It's a nice place to spend time. And I personally relate with that. Um, and if you Google around the Lake metaphor is a very strong metaphor that that folks are associated with. And it's used the associated with the mind. It's a metaphor for the mind, the calm surface, lots of information inside, and you've got bedrock, you've got layers. It's, it's complex in the same way, scrums complex. So there's an overlap. So this, the Lake metaphor is very personal to me. Um, and I love that we have muddled scrum within this Lake, and it's an interactive model. It's a canvas that we can explore with people. It's not a, it's not traditional training. It's not, it's not lecture. It's really free flowing. Um, and I've, I've wanted to do something like this for a long time. Um, okay. But it's only because of working with Ryan and Ryan and myself working together, this thing exists. Uh, but I've talked about doing workshops where people would decide their own path through the workshop and it would be totally free form. And people would have total flexibility and freedom within a canvas or within a workshop and people in the past, how that wouldn't work. Yeah. How, how would people know where they're going? But it really, really does. Um, when you sort of say, right, it's all open, you can go anywhere, but it's not kind of, it's not chaotic anywhere it's within, it's within the boundaries of a Lake and it's dot voted. It's really rare to have fall, but this isn't when I talk like that, it sounds like it's my thing. This isn't my thing. I ha I've had this idea, uh, a little bit of this ideal, uh, over the years. And Ryan's had his own ideas about how you can do co-chair of co-creative workshops. This is a true collaboration where we've combined our ideas and we've used scrum to build the bill. This workshop we've bounced off each other, and we've built this. Um, we built this workshop that I, whenever I go to it, whenever I come to, I can't wait to come into my own workshop because it's not, it's not, uh, it's not like anything else I've experienced. It's not something that your being it's done to you. It's, it's totally co-created and you're doing it. And you're building something with other people and it's totally flat. And that's what I truly believe agile teams are. It's teal itself organizing, and it's, it's full of values and it's full of soul. Um, and I'm really proud that myself and Ryan have worked together to build this thing that I enjoy facilitating and getting involved with. Um, because it's so, it's so it's so nice. It's so, so therapeutic to, to do it and work with folks on this. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Total. Yeah. So when you were talking about the Lake, I think that's what I was referring to is that, um, you know, most people are visual learners. I've, I've heard it to some extent and, uh, to, to the, I think, John, are you the one that does the drawings?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I, I, I like your it's very, I like it. I I've, it's, it's pretty unique in my opinion, the way you draw and, uh, even just your signature's there, I find that, uh, thank you. Unlike something I've, I've I've ever seen before, but yeah. A lot of people like the pictures and like I said, lot of people have been into lakes before, so, um, so it was mainly your idea, John, but, uh, so Ryan, is that kinda, what,
Speaker 4:No, it's, I, I just want to be there. It's mainly not my idea. This wouldn't, this wouldn't, this wouldn't exist. If it wasn't a combined collaborative effort. And again, the workshops we do wouldn't exist. If it wasn't combined and collaborative, I've been thinking about this for a long time. I had ideas. I, I, but I literally didn't know what it was going to look like. I just thought there was a, I know, clean, I know a little bit of clean language. I know the power of metaphor, and I I've really believed that there was a workshop or some kind of training where it wasn't controlled or contrived. And then I bumped in divine and we sort of just sort of bounced off each other in a fabulous way. It's a true collaboration between us. This wouldn't exist if I hadn't been met by Ryan and Ryan hadn't met me. It only exists because of the two of us on when we actually first started to talk. Uh, there was absolutely
Speaker 3:No concept of this becoming a product. This was, uh, a way to bound our conversations. And I think actually after a while, we started thinking that if it's been useful to us, there were so many other great people in our, we have a truly, when I say community scrum masters are a community, um, we will help each other out. Uh, and some people have done some really, really cool stuff. And we just thought, you know, why not? Why not give back? Uh, and it's been really great to be able to do that, uh, and to find this product. And honestly, John and I have effectively defined our, our product goal and we've, we've self-managed to, to form or building a solution to that, uh, which has been really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, and just, uh, I've got, uh, just a little, a little tangent here. I know there's, um, actually I know John, you were, uh, involved in a conversation, I think today, yesterday on LinkedIn and, uh, the ongoing kind of, um, you know, debate whether certifications are worth it or something. And I just think it's interesting that, um, as you were talking here, that the amazing turnout that you've had to your, uh, to scrum Lake, uh, and no certifications, right? No certifications come from it just simply, uh, I mean, you guys have your certifications, you know, um, but just simply it's not sanctioned by scrum.org or any anybody, and you don't get a certification and, um, people are flocking to it knowing they don't get certification, just wanting to talk about it. And, uh, you know,
Speaker 3:John, you talk about it as a, you say it's a safe place for you to talk about to fellow scrum masters. How do you describe it?
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's scrum masters without borders. Almost. It's a safe place for people. I know a colleague of mine suggested that I say in that way, I, an ex colleague of mine suggested that as a talk, because often a scrum masters, you have a border and your border is your team. You might have a cop, but that's not as, hopefully that is a safe place to talk, but is it truly a safe place to be totally open about all of the things you are because you're in, within a wide organization and teams are often compared scrum masters are often compared that's not safe. That's not, that's not how it, that's not how you grow at, at, at your organization. That's not how you empower people. So, um, I think scrum masters, um, we, we talk and work with teams and we work with the organization. We work with our product owners. We work with our developers and we serve, but who's working with us. Where do we have a place to tell stories to each other and do that personal work to kind of decompress. That's a great pick, another great word for a Lake. Yeah. To decompress. Tell stories, say when it works, say when it doesn't work and then explore different scenarios with scrum masters from all over the world in a completely safe environment where you're doing that really important work in that place. And then you leave that there and you come away refreshed, you come away with a clever, a clearer understanding of what could be and how it could be. I think often scrum and agile training is delivered as training. It's delivered as a thing that you do when, when you've got it, you've got the certificate that you've got the certification and you're done, you're sorted. And that's it. Um, scrum Lake is, is kind of the opposite of that. It's an event. It's a workshop you come to where you work with other people and you build your knowledge and experience by working through other people. It's empirical knowledge, a knowledge and experience grows through those conversations. And it's not a single, it's not a single point. Um, because I think you can, you can take on the knowledge, you can go on a course. You can read a book. You can you take on knowledge, but you're not building experience of how to do it, right? You only build the experience by doing it and working with teams. Um, and Graham Lake is a way of building experience in a, in a safer place, away from teams and come up with solutions and things that you didn't think were possible
Speaker 3:That we removed the context. And without that worry, that causes a lot of people to maybe hold back in, in organization, led CIPS and make it that, that truly safe place. And because of the context is gone, people are focused from us to focused on actually supporting each other on helping them identify the problem and then working forwards. Um, you know, it's absolutely not, it's not training, but to is a place where you can gather knowledge, not just in the guide, but you know, actionable ways to, to improve the situation. Uh, and it's been helpful to us. I mean, John, I know you refer to yourself as facilitators, but also we're, we're really keen to join because we learned to, uh, with in a really bad sense of it when we asked to feel active participants, um, very retrospective, we take apart and share our knowledge and learn as well.
Speaker 4:Yeah. We hold back as well, because it is for the team, but it's, it's an amazing event.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I noticed that you do. Yeah. John, you said, you said a whole lot there that I wanted to talk about. Um, and Ryan touched on the, I never thought about it. I mean, I sense that it was a safe place, but I never compared it to where I work. And just, you got me thinking, is it, do I feel safer in scrum Lake than I do at my company when I meet with, uh, uh, you know, the team of scrum masters that we all share the same manager, like there's seven or eight of us when we, we meet, we meet collectively as a team, without our manager, um, to discuss things. And I, I'm just trying to think if I am more up, uh, cause at scrum Lake, I don't know these people. Um, although I've gotten to know some people cause similar people show up, which is nice to see. Um, but to your point, I could probably say things there that I know I could get away with it, not in a bad way, but I mean, I could say things like if I wanted to vent about my company, I could possibly say it and they would know what I'm talking about. Right. They don't know the people I'm talking about. Um, it probably is more safe than a cop cause at your work, you may have to worry about, like you said, teams being compared. If there's a, if you say something about your, your boss to a scrum master that maybe doesn't like you, you could potentially get in trouble. So yeah, I think I do kind of, it is cathartic for me. It's therapy when I come to it, I really, I look forward to it a lot. Um, I really enjoy it and I'm like, when's the next from like, I know I've reached out to you and be like, Hey, when's the next traveling? And you're like, well, it's coming. And uh, yeah. But, uh, yeah. And then one thing you said, um, John about, um, it's not training and um, um, you know, but I'm like it. So if I was a new scrum master, if there's a new, you know, if you're new to scrum out there listening to this and you're fairly new, kind of like the LinkedIn thing was where the guy was asking about, you know, uh, training inserts and all that stuff. So it's like if I'm a brand new scrum master, someone's listing there and wants to get into it and they showed up to scrum Lake, um, they may not have the experiences to talk about, but they can hear other people's experiences and, and have you take them through you and you and, uh, Ryan take them through and hear other experiences and at least get a taste for it. Um, I know what they're getting into. I think it could be sort of a training if you look at it that way. Uh,
Speaker 4:It is, it is, it is. Yeah, it is training, but it's not draining. Um, yeah, it's building knowledge and experience, but it's not, it's not through the way that you'd expect it. Right. It comes through, it. It's a function of the conversations between the people. It's a function of the complexity. Um, it's been too, there's people are people through people. Um, it's real, it's real conversations. It's not, um, it's not a candy coated version of scrum. It's not a, it's not a sold version of anything, right? These real human stories about how people are working together and in a relatively anonymous way, because we, we have a code of conduct and we, we kind of agree and we, we sort of, we, we put edges around it and people share what they can and, and think they can, but it's real, but it's real because it's metaphorical and it's not real because you hear on a zoom call and you're looking at exactly a canvas of a Lake and you're exploring a Lake, but it really feels like your real really feel like you're diving in deeper into stuff. And people seem to have the freedom to sort of say what they think that needs to be said. And myself and Ryan say these things as well. We, we, we open up and we talk about things. So yeah, it's, um, I think therapy's two strings cathartic. It's like, uh, it's, it's, it's something that's needed. Um, it reminds me of, we were, we were dumb jumping into a scrum Lake and talking about coverage. I know we've talked about this since, uh, as, as well, but coverage, um, it's easier to do something when you, with other people and jumping in scrums easier coverage is easier when you've got other people around you and scrum Lake means you've got some other people around you to talk about these things, which often for many people in Lee J job, and I've had this in the past and I'm sure many people, many of the listeners don't have a safe place to come to talk about these things. Uh, and that's what scrum, it gives us. It gives me a place to, to, to listen to stories and tell my stories and, uh, and clear my head and, uh, and sort of explore how I'm acting and working with teams and organizations.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's, it's the community, um, is what I mean, I've, you've both been around scrum a long time. I have to, I've been in it for 10 years going on 11 years now. And, um, the one thing that I see with a lot of, uh, scrum masters I've come across in my career is the, um, you know, the continuous learning is sometimes not, not there. And I, um, I think I appreciate, you know, we shouldn't assume that we know everything right. Cause I know, I don't know everything. And uh, you know, you might, you might, people might look at someone like us, Oh, 10 years, 15 years. Why do you need to, you know, you know, at all right, you should know it. No, because I need, I need to continuously be fed too. If I'm not learning and growing, um, how can I then help my team learn and grow as well? Right. So I, I, that's what it does for me.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's the oxygen mask we talk about. Self-care we talk about continuous improvement. We talk about looking after ourselves. Um, and we, we truly believe that for teams and organizations, we, we see retrospectives as, as the, as the sacrosanct thing that if you borrowed all the way, retrospect in my mind, the most important thing, it's the thing it's because it enables that continuous improvement. It's a safe place for people to decompress, have conversations, explore how they work. So we truly believe it for our teams and the organization we're working with. But so often we don't have that for ourself. So we're not drinking our own champagne. We're not, we're not practicing what we preach. We're not making, we're saying we need to do self-care, but we don't have a place we've not created places. Or if we have, they're not providing it. Um, and it's not about going on a training course. It's not about getting another, uh, it's not about getting another badge, certifications, learning. Logic's cool, but it's deeper than process. Um, I think scrum is a beautiful combination of the top of the Lake in scrum Lake and then the bedrock, the values and the ferry. It's the combination of doing scrum and being agile in combination. And I think a lot of the things that we have as scrum masters, it's not entirely the case that there's some folk that are providing this, but a lot of the stuff is providing, providing practices. It's providing theory, it's providing steps to follow. It's not, and you you'd follow the steps and you get a certificate and a hail, or you follow the steps, you learn a load of things, you do some exams, and then you've got some certificates. Um, but it's not kind of every two weeks you meet a few people, you talk about the things, you explore different things and you bring some stuff. Some other people bring some stuff, you work together with some other people and, and you have some time for yourself with some other people. And then you go away very similar to how we really do truly believe that that is what teams need. We're not doing it for ourselves. We don't, we're not giving ourselves. We've not created the space for ourselves to do that, which is surprising. It's almost like, um, shadow and projection. So we're projecting, this is what you need to do, but we're not, we may be have some of it in CPS, but we're not truly doing it for ourselves. Um, and that's what scrum naked is. It's it's yeah, I I've, maybe there are some other things around it around scrubbing that provide it, but I needed scrum Lake for myself. Um, I found it really useful with Ryan. We found it useful each other, and then we thought maybe other people would find it useful. And by golly, they do for me, I am the only scrum master in my organization. Uh, we really, we eat absolutely.
Speaker 3:Uh, I say absolutely like, that's something to expect it, but no, I mean, my organization is, is a fairly decent size. Um, but yeah, there's what I want to say. That I am the only scrum master who is a scrum master and he's not a developer wearing a different colored hat. Okay. So I, I mean, I love, I love scrum, um, in, in a healthy way. Um, there are people who use it as a, as perhaps a means to an end and are maybe bought in as much as some people are. And I think it's great to go to the Lake, uh, and talk to people who, who like to talk about the nitty gritty, the, the small things that, you know, we talk about language. We talk about phrasing of certain things in the guide about what they actually mean to us. And John's really great. He's, he's good with clean language setup, and we can really use that to break things down, uh, which you just don't get. And you, you come away with new insights, new, sometimes new practices, uh, but it really moves you forward. Uh, not to knock specifications. I think certifications are fantastic. They have a space, but for me, a lot of people say certifications, it's the learning journey that counts. And that's where we sit. We are part of that learning journey. Um, but he's very much a feedback loop. There, there is no end for us. Uh, you can continue to join and hopefully get new things each time you join.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So right now, um, if you're listening, if you're still listening here, uh, this is for the tickets to scrum length that we're going to give away here. Code word is John and Ryan, go ahead and email me that, and you will be entered in the contest for tickets to scrambling. So, all right, great. So, Ryan, yeah. So being the only scrum master at your company, I can imagine this is probably very cathartic for you. If, if you said there's nobody at your company who, um, you can really bounce things off, I guess, right? You have no cop there. Um, this is probably very, very useful for you I'd imagine.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Um, it is really good because you can sometimes fail, you know, right. New scrum guide. We're all one team. We were always one team, but I feel like there was the artificial, the creation team, the development team, the scrum master and a product owner. Uh, and yes, I, I, you know, I, I'm really glad that that's now been amalgamated into one centralized team, but I still sometimes feel like the way scrum is structured and our organization is we have the developers as, as parts of the, the delivery organization. And then the receiver of value is not our organization. It's external, it's a client. So they provide a, a product owner, uh, such that they reflect such that the product owner role is to them. Um, but then I sit as part of the delivery organization. So there is almost a divide between the scrum master and, and the developers. I work with the people who are, who are creating, crafting the product and then the external value receiver. And we do bring that product owner in. However, there is, there always seems to be that artificial barrier between client and provider. Uh, and so for me, uh, even though I work with my developers, you know, we discussed scrum, we, we iteratively improve things. I is really valuable for me to talk about situations, if anybody else has been in similar situations and what kind of things they've done. Um, I can't count the amount of times when, when we've been having discussions and someone, myself, John included have gone. I'm going to take that away. That's a great insight. Uh, and it's just things that are maybe so obvious that you, you haven't considered them, or you hadn't come across them. You just need someone to write off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. So, so how does it feel for you guys to know that, uh, based on the reaction you've gotten sold out? So I think every single one has been sold out and having to open up other sessions. I know we're recording this in March. I know you add, add a second session in March because of the great response for the one you have coming up. Um, how does that make you feel, knowing that people there's a, there's a great need out there. People are getting so much. How do you guys feel about that?
Speaker 3:I, I feel great. I think we've, we've created a product that people find useful. Um, I think one of the, I mean, we're talking in the future here, like a good scrum master or scrum masters wanted, but not necessarily needed scrum, like is like to us, we want this to perpetuate, to be useful for people, um, going forward. Uh, and if people find value in it, and we've seen that in terms of our metrics of, of returning people, uh, on people reaching out to us to discuss it, uh, even organizational levels talking about how can we bring it into their organization, uh, is great. Um, you know, it's, it's what we did it for. Uh, if I wasn't too corny, um, you know, it started off as not a product. Uh, and we only put the effort in on John. I don't know about you, but it feels like we've put a lot of effort into there. It's all been worth it. Uh, but it has taken us a lot of time to refine it, argue and, uh, and improve it. Right.
Speaker 1:And I know, um, I know you guys, you run it. I think I heard you say to me, one time you run it in sprints. Right. And you do a retrospective, you do planning and all that stuff. Right. You run it like a scrum product, like you said, right? Yes. I guess it was more X pay at the start. Um, but that, so,
Speaker 4:Okay. Um, and it's just two folks, but yes, we, we are, we are, we are definitely, it's more spread and Z now. Um, I think we've evolved exactly the right framework for the right domain at the time. Uh, now we've become into that more, more complicated, um, well, complex to complicate, I would say if we're talking about Ken effin, um, but we, we can set ourselves goals. We can start talking about where we want to get to. Um, but like John says, it's two people, uh, but we're modeling the accountabilities and things are going well.
Speaker 1:Great. Great. So, um, we have the three of us discussed here. Uh, possibly this is probably going to be, uh, uh, at least another episode, maybe even a third episode if you're listening there. So this episode has been just all about where that, where scrum like started, how, how John and Ryan met. Um, that's going into a little bit of the, uh, like how can people get ahold of you guys? And it's just scrum lake.com to sign up for the, for the sessions, is that discriminate.com the website?
Speaker 4:Uh, yes. Advise our website. Um, although we are both of us more than happy to, to be reached out to on, on things like LinkedIn, um, please do send us emails. I mean, we're bothRyan@discriminate.com, john@scrumlight.com. Uh, yeah. We're happy to happy to chat to people. Tell us what you want. Uh, it's an open product if there's something that it's an offering that, that you want, we are, we are open to review and inspect. Yeah. I think, I think that the thing is, it's saying that we're doing these as, as, as open sessions with folks from around the world and that's really valuable. Um, but we're now exploring, running these within CIPS, within organizations and we're getting folks contacting us for that. So it's interesting, which is amazing, uh, as amazing. Yeah. I had someone talk yesterday. Can we do it in a different language? It's like, wow, that's good. I'm going to go hard note on value.
Speaker 1:Pardon?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I need about half on that one. Um, but, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's, it's,
Speaker 4:I'd love to give this away for free. Yeah. And, uh, and, but then we I've put so much time into the environs put so much time into this. It must be months worth of effort working evenings and nights drawing, building, debating, writing. Um, and it, and it was selling out within like when it was crazy, the first few sessions are free and they would sell out within a couple of hours. And it was like, well, this is silly. So we need to charge something for it. So we've done a small, relatively small phase, but I guess that's based on perception, I guess that's based on where you are in the world. Um, but yeah, I want it to be available for people. Um, but I want, and I want to spread it out. I want to grow it out because I think that I need this as a scrum master. I need an event. I need something where I can explore the gnarly real-world examples and hear other people saying, well, yeah, no, I'm the same as that. And, um, that I faced that as well, and this is what I need that for myself. And I think if I need that other people need that. So I think it needs to be at a price that works for people, but the amount that we've put into it, I think we do need to charge, um, it's a tricky balance. I'm, I'm conflicted with this. Um, but then,
Speaker 1:So I have, sorry, I have no problem paying for it. I've told you that. And I, I have, and, uh, I think even, um, I think even the, the paid ones have sold out. Correct. If I'm not mistaken. Yeah. So it continues to sell out. So I think, um, it's completely, it's definitely a lot cheaper than a, you know,$1,500. Oh yeah. It's scrum class, right? For certification.
Speaker 4:Exactly. It's, it's, it's, it's 34 state of course, that in dollars 30 quid, how much does it?
Speaker 1:It's$34 us for me. Okay, cool.
Speaker 4:Um, so it, it's not training, that's the, the thing, it's a group of people getting together and working, uh, using our metaphors. We facilitate it and we explore with it, but it's not a traditional training in the sense of that. So it doesn't really fit within, uh, within, uh, a bucketed thing that other people do. So when, when you're talking with folks, when you're talking to organizations about it, it's not, it's not traditional training, it's not a one-off that what you could do as a one off workshop. And that's fine, I'm sure you got a lot of value it, but you really get value by doing a little bit, a couple of hours. And then a few weeks later doing a few more hours, a few weeks later doing a few more hours. And that's where we're getting fee folks come back and sort of come back to us and working a bit more. Um, but it's, uh, it's yeah. I can see why training is much more simple than can ever, in terms, you, you pay your money, you get your training. You've, you've done your thing. This is a more complex, this is more complex, which is more in line with what scrum is. Um, but because it's more complex, it's, uh, it doesn't really fit within a box it's coming to where you work with other people. Um, but yeah, I, I think people are really interested in it and again, I want to grow it and I want, because I think there's value in it for folks. And I want other people to experience that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I know, um, you've told, I think you've told me, you tried to do this is just so people know you tried to do this, is it once a month or every, every other week.
Speaker 3:So it's getting to the point now where we've got so many people wanting to take part that we're, even though, I guess our feedback has been, that people want to attend approximately monthly. Um, we're now running them usually, or starting to now fortnightly. Um, but that's just give capacity more than we're not expecting people to return more frequently is it's not, it's not a money model. That's I think that's really important to put across is about creating capacity for folks who want to join so that they can. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Yeah. I know that I'm personally, I've been trying to, I want to go once I think in my head, I said, I want to do it once a month. Um, definitely once a month and, uh, just to keep up on it. Cause I, you know, people there that I remember the last time I went to it, um, people were saying, Oh, hi, Greg, nice to see you again. And you know, people had, I'd seen pop on and then there's about three or four people that, uh, that I see there every single time. So there's definitely people returning, uh, over and over again. I've seen that. So and so, yeah. Um, can I ask, why do you,
Speaker 3:I know you've talked a bit about it, but why,
Speaker 1:What do you,
Speaker 3:Why do you want to keep on coming back? What's the thing, that's, what's the thing that makes you want to come and work with other people from around?
Speaker 1:Uh, it's just that it's the community, the conversations. Um, obviously I've been around scrum a long time. I, I, you know, I know the process, uh, it's, it's the conversations it's unit, you know, and talking to me I'm and this, on this podcast, obviously I'm slanted towards the values and the principles. And that's where my mind goes. That's my passion. However, the conversations, I, I, every time I talk to somebody and this is part of the continuous learning, in my opinion, every time I talked to somebody like you guys, I hear something just a little bit differently. Maybe you've had a different experience. I'm like, you know, I've never experienced that. And I listened to it and I hear what you've been through, but I mean, I'm fascinated by people from other countries, uh, just as a, uh, I'm, I'm just a good inquisitive person. Um, when I was in college, just as a little side note, I lived in a, I purposely lived in an international dorm because I wanted to meet people when I was 18. I wanted to meet people from other countries. I did, I met people from all over the world and it was amazing. So had you had this in the U S I probably would still go to it, like, if you would have been, if you guys were in the U S and it was strictly with, for people, the U S I probably would still go to it, but the one aspect I do really enjoy the people from all over the world, hearing the different perspectives, seeing, Oh, you know, maybe things in, in different countries, you know, you maybe operate a little bit differently with scrum, and maybe there's something I can learn there from talking to people. And, and John you've said many times, it's just stories. Um, I mean, it's more than that, but you've, you've mentioned that a lot, that it's stories, and that's what I get from it. The conversations, that's what keeps drawing me back, the conversations and the little nuances that people say, uh, you know, their experiences all at my job, we do this and we do it this, and, Oh, I tried this and little things maybe I can pick up on. Um, that's what draws me back. Okay. Interesting. And I've got another one, man. How's it been for a couple now, but there was anything that, anything that surprised you, is there anything that surprised you from firmness? Is there anything that sort of, that you've taken away that, Oh gosh, that, that was a, I wasn't expecting that, uh, like good or bad, good or bad. Uh, I mean, nothing bad for sure. Anything that surprised me? Um, maybe that, um, I know, I think we were in a, I don't know if it was, you did a different, maybe I'm confusing, but I think sometimes, um, maybe that surprises me is that the deeper we go, right. Obviously you are into the bedrock or talk about the values. Um, sometimes it surprises me that the people really sometimes struggle with that. Right. They really struggle grasping the values and, and which is okay, but it kind of opens my eyes to say, um, sometimes I think, well, you know, it's scrum has saturated the world. You know, everybody, everybody that needs to know scrum knows scrum. And then I come to something like this and I'm like, no, that's not true. Um, they may know the process, but that's just, that's just one part of it. And as you go down and you take us into the bedrock and we vote where we want to go, do we want to go courage or respect or openness? And sometimes it goes quiet. It gets quieter. Right. And I've heard you say before, Oh yeah, we're going deeper. Okay. No, you know, people are thinking, right. Because it gets a little more challenging, right? The deeper we go into that and to that bedrock and start, and people, it challenges people, which is good, but it does surprise me that that side of scrum or agile, the values and principles are, are still, um, like when I, when I go to, uh, when I, when I went to a scrum class, uh, any most scrum classes I've been to are very light on that. To be candid with you over here there, I enough, but you guys have experienced very light on the values principles. They may gloss over it and say, Oh yeah, but it's mostly the process. And that's that, that continues to surprise me, that people are struggling with that.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think that the values back in the day, back in X, P O U principal led or practice led was a debate that XPS had a long, long time ago. And I was always principal that time principals that, Oh, no, you have to follow the practices first. Then the principles come, which one, which one do you go with first? Um, and I think the principals led, so, and I know we've talked a lot about this, that that's the foundation of scrum Lake, but so to give a better background, scrum Lake is a Lake that describes as a model for squam at the top, you got, um, the practices in the water. It's the things you do. It's the accountabilities, it's the events. The artifact is in the water. It's in that Lake thing. But beneath that Lake, you've got the bedrock and the sedimentary layers, the bed, dropping the values, the sedimentary layers being empiricism and lean thinking. But without that bedrock, without that empiricism and lean thinking, you don't have a deep Lake. You've just got a muddy puddle. You're just following steps. Yeah. You're just following steps. You got to hippos jumping in muddy puddles, and it's not great. It's a muddy puddle and you can't get out of that muddy puddle. It's really hard to teach value. And in fact, it's, it's not possible to teach values. That's not how,
Speaker 1:That's not how people work.
Speaker 4:Right. You can teach, you can teach accountability events, artifacts. So this is the steps we follow. You can teach values. Oh yeah, they're great. These are the values we need to embody them. Embody them. You need to embody values. You have personal values, you have things that you, you, you hold dear to you and they grow. And when you, when you embody those values and pivots, CISM sort of comes to life and trust belts. Um, but that's not by learning it. That's by doing that. And that's by embodying values. Um, and yeah, you don't, so I'm not surprised that teaching of that is light because you teach it and people's eyes will slightly glaze over. You need to do things with people and let people bring their own values and really sort of explore it with other people. Um, which is the opposite of training. Um, it's the opposite.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Sorry to sorry to cut you off here, but I think this is, this might be a good, a good spot to save more for. That's a good segue in episode two, where we're going to talk more about the deep dive in the bedrock. Um, that's just a little taste there. So I think that this might be a good stopping point, uh, for the first episode, uh, with John and Ryan talking about, um, the origin of scrum Lake and what it's all about and why they started it. Uh, I've been there. What I got out of it, how you can sign up all that good stuff. So thank you everyone for listening to please reach out to me, email me gregMiller@theagilewithin.com send me that a semi John and Ryan, you will be registered into a drawing to win tickets, to scrum length that sells out all the time. They're very hard to get ahold of. So I will be giving away tickets to scrum Lake. You don't want to miss that. Please reach out to me on social media, get ahold of me with, uh, your comments, suggestions, questions, subscribe on the podcast apps that you're listening to. So, you know, when new episodes are coming out, new episode comes out every Monday. Be sure to take a, take a listen to all the episodes that are out there. And this has been Greg, John and Ryan at the agile within catch us on this next episode here. And this has been the Andrew within where we
Speaker 2:[inaudible].